Component parts to none certificate holders

[HDAV]

I can assure you that GMK most certainly are an RFD. Each individual working for GMK is allowed to handle the firearms and ammunition that GMK has in its stock as the Firearms Act creates an exemption for an RFD's servant and they are servants of the RFD by virtue of being in his employ.

 

Carries such as those you mention don't need to be RFD's as the Act creates an examption for them. Defence contractors still need to be RFDs. There is a section allowing the police to exempt certain defence companies from needing to be RFD's if they don't handle complete weapons.

 

I might be wrong but when a friend had a gun replaced under warranty (Browning) it had to go to local RFD as BWM couldn't put it on cert directly reason given was they weren't RFD's.

 

I dont know of the defence contractor being RFD's and i think an FEO would have a hard time with them as the FEO would not qualify to entry to the site particularly the bits where certain items were kept as you needed "top secret" security clearance (I wasn't allowed into the labs) but i did think there was an exception when working for the crown?

 

One notable issue was when a piece of armour was delivered for R&D and parked in the car park/secure compound (6' chain link fence) it had been there a few weeks before someone thought the .50 cal being on the top was a bad idea and the army had to come and take it away.......

Edited February 3, 2013 by HDAV

[JonathanL]

I might be wrong but when a friend had a gun replaced under warranty (Browning) it had to go to local RFD as BWM couldn't put it on cert directly reason given was they weren't RFD's.

 

They must be an RFD or they could not legally handle and sell firearms. More likely that they simply do not deal directly with the public, or the fact that the final handover has to be in person. Anyway, how does that relate to GMK? They definitely are an RFD as I recall writing down their RFD details only last week after recieving some ammo from them. Again, they could not legally sell and handle ammo if they weren't.

 

I dont know of the defence contractor being RFD's and i think an FEO would have a hard time with them as the FEO would not qualify to entry to the site particularly the bits where certain items were kept as you needed "top secret" security clearance (I wasn't allowed into the labs) but i did think there was an exception when working for the crown?

 

It wouldn't matter as the licensing department doesn't need to know specifically which firearms the company would be in possession of. In any event, given the nature of defence contractors they would likely be section 5 authorised anyway. I'm sure there is some sort of Crown immunity that comes into that sort of thing as well though.

 

J.

Edited February 4, 2013 by JonathanL

[wabbitbosher]

You wouldn't know until it was proved either way - if the barrel bore the number of a sec.1 gun you'd be in trouble.

 

J.

 

Just sold a Barrel from a Section One firearm to a chap with a Section Two licence , the Barrel is Not Section one, it can only hold One round

[wabbitbosher]

Of course you wouldn't, unless they could prove that you and him had an agreement to do that to begin with. If your mate does something illegal it is not your problem. Parliament has said what they law is and has chosen to make a specific point that shotgun components are not shotguns under these circumstances.

 

 

Have you read the extracts from the Firearms Act that I quoted and linked to anf the HO guidance? Can you provide a link or quote to anything in the Fireams Act which supports what you say?

 

 

 

The deactivation criteria are not the same thing. That is merely the standard to which something must be deactivated in order to get a proof house stamp.

 

J.

 

 

 

Corrected for you.

 

J.

 

 

 

No they aren't. Can you provide a link to the part of the law you claim negatives section 57?

 

J.

 

I Dont need to provide Proof of my opinion !

 

All Firearms Law is Very complicated, if people want to take your word then so be it,

What Qualification do you have to give advice to people regarding Firearms Law ?

 

I think its against the law to give your shotgun Barrels to a non license holder,

[evo]

Just sold a Barrel from a Section One firearm to a chap with a Section Two licence , the Barrel is Not Section one, it can only hold One round

 

now i am confused wabbit,, :lol:

[kent]

The law is the law, if its enforced is down to circumstances and the police investigating- If its prosecuted is down to the cps and if it leads to a successful prosecution is down to the court on the day. That said I think its an *** in this case as you can legally hold a shotgun shell without a certificate and a rather agricultural but fully functioning "shotgun shell firer" is not hard to make though it's maybe irresponsible to discuss how

[JonathanL]

I Dont need to provide Proof of my opinion !

 

All Firearms Law is Very complicated, if people want to take your word then so be it,

What Qualification do you have to give advice to people regarding Firearms Law ?

 

I think its against the law to give your shotgun Barrels to a non license holder,

 

Section 57 says that it isn't. The final paragraph of it (previously quoted) says that for these purposes component parts which are excluded from section 1 controls are not firearms in their own right. Hence, you do not need a certificate to possess them.

 

If you think differently then please quote the part of the Firearms Act which negatives the final paragrpah of section 57. If you think that that isn't what the final paragraph of section 57 means then what is your opinion as to what it does mean?

 

J.

Edited February 4, 2013 by JonathanL

[Steel100]

Blaser F3. Thank you. Yes, I agree - same in South Yorkshire, where I am. I recently surrendered a receiver with 'permanently' attached s2 magazine and the bolt. I kept all the other parts except the barrel which had been badly damaged (prior to my acquisition of same).

 

South Yorkshire agreed s2 parts can be held without certificate BUT wanted me to advise of disposition to keep them happy. It was simpler to do this than argue the point.

 

EVO - As JonathanL has stated, YES. However, your police force may not know the law and get stroppy about it. How confident are you to push it? If not, I suggest that you discuss with them first. Do remember, the Police are often ignorant of the law and will tell you what they want and not what the law actually states. I'm happy to discuss out of Forum via email if you wish.

 

Rgds

 

Andy

[Kes]

You have just ignored the part underlined. You cannot just selectively quote certain parts. Yes, the part in bold means what you say it means but the underlined part reduces its scope and removes component parts which are not section 1.

 

J.

 

Unless you can quote case law rather than opinion, I am afraid I shall continue to assume that all parts of a lethal barrelled weapon remain firearms.

All section 1 says to me - if the weapon is not a firearm then non of its component parts is a firearm. A shotgun is a firearm and thus is caught as are its component parts, IMHO.

Maybe Mungler would hazard an opinion?

[wabbitbosher]

The term "component part" may be held to include (i) the barrel, chamber, cylinder, (ii) frame, body or receiver, (iii) breech, block, bolt or other mechanism for containing the charge at the rear of the chamber (iv), any other part of the firearm upon which the pressure caused by firing the weapon impinges directly. Magazines, sights and furniture are not considered component parts.

 

• any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon.
  

Lethality is a complex issue and although case law exists (Moore v Gooderham [1960] 3 All E.R. 575), only a court can decide whether any particular weapon is capable of causing "more than trifling and trivial" injury and is therefore is a "firearm" for the purposes of the Acts. The Forensic Science Provider (FSP) will be able to advise in any case where "lethality" is likely to be an issue. See also: R v Thorpe 85 Cr. App. R 107 CA.

[wabbitbosher]

"from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged" has to be capable of discharging a missile either in its present state or with adaptation. To prove that a weapon is a firearm, it is essential to call evidence as to whether a bullet or missile can be discharged from the weapon or which can be adapted to discharge any missile: Grace v DPP (1989) Crim L.R.365

Edited February 6, 2013 by wabbitbosher

[GingerCat]

Have to agree, the firearms act includes a section on interpretation, it says that a shotgun barrel is considered to be a shotgun for the purpose of the act.

[parapilot]

Sounds like no one would put their house on it. What a state firearms law is in,in this country!!!! So much confusion.

 

Like airguns and 12ftlb no one has a clue how the police are going to test them what with etc etc. it's all made up as they go and differs between forces. No other conviction would stand up like that, be laughed out of court, but as soon as firearms are mentioned no one stands up an argues the point!! Everyone's scared and brands us instantly for owning firearms

 

Needs to be cleared up.

[BlaserF3]

When the person who signs my Shotgun Certificate on behalf on the Chief Constable, tells me that Section 2 shotgun spare barrels do NOT have to have the serial number entered on my SGC I'll believe her not someone on a forum.

[JonathanL]

You have just ignored the part underlined. You cannot just selectively quote certain parts. Yes, the part in bold means what you say it means but the underlined part reduces its scope and removes component parts which are not section 1.

 

J.

 

Unless you can quote case law rather than opinion, I am afraid I shall continue to assume that all parts of a lethal barrelled weapon remain firearms.

All section 1 says to me - if the weapon is not a firearm then non of its component parts is a firearm. A shotgun is a firearm and thus is caught as are its component parts, IMHO.

Maybe Mungler would hazard an opinion?

 

I've quoted the relevant statute. There is no case precident needed as it is not open to interpretation. It says, quite clearly, that components of firearms which are themselves excluded from section 1 are excluded from control.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Have to agree, the firearms act includes a section on interpretation, it says that a shotgun barrel is considered to be a shotgun for the purpose of the act.

 

No it doesn't. The final paragrpah of section 57 (the section which deals with interpretation) says that if a component part of a firearm excluded from section 1 is not a firearm in its own right.

 

J.

[GingerCat]

“shot gun” has the meaning assigned to it by section 1(3)(a) of this Act and, in sections 3(1) and 45(2) of this Act and in the definition of “firearms dealer”, includes any component part of a shot gun and any accessory to a shot gun designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the gun;

 

There you go, it says it quite clearly that it includes any componet part, the law isint straight forward and is notq codified with legal precedents often supersedeing what us written. Until that point is clarified in a court if law it is prudent to assume the spirit of the act means that sec 2 mirrors sec 1 as far as component parts are concerned.

 

[GingerCat]

Section 3 deals with repairs, having barrels re blued can count as a repair. It says the following..Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.

 

(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—

(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F1. . .

(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F2or

©sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.

 

(2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.

(3)It is an offence for a person to undertake the repair, test or proof of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, for any other person in the United Kingdom other than a registered firearms dealer as such, unless that other produces or causes to be produced a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of the firearm or ammunition or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to have possession of it without holding a certificate.

(4)Subsections (1) to (3) above have effect subject to any exemption under subsequent provisions of this Part of this Act.

(5)A person commits an offence if, with a view to purchasing or acquiring, or procuring the repair, test or proof of, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, he produces a false certificate or a certificate in which any false entry has been made, or personates a person to whom a certificate has been granted, or [F3knowingly or recklessly makes a statement false in any material particular].

(6)It is an offence for a pawnbroker to take in pawn any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun.

 

Now as we saw later in section 57 where it says a section 1 is à section 1 until its something else under another section and a shotgun is à shotgun even when its just the barrells or other component part, we can say with some confidence that having barrells repaired via means of re blueing them would require someone to have the necessary paperwork allowing them possession, either a section 2 certificate or be employed by a gunsmith (who is registered as stated elsewhere in the legislation) to be acting lawfully.

 

 

[GingerCat]

In fact this very point has been clarified in law in section 40 so there is no point in argueing, the chief officer needs to give dispensation

 

Exemption from s. 40 in case of trade in shot gun components.

 

If it appears to the chief officer of police that—

 

(a)a person required to be registered as a firearms dealer carries on a trade or business in the course of which he manufactures, tests or repairs component parts or accessories for shot guns, but does not manufacture, test or repair complete shot guns; and

(b)it is impossible to assemble a shot gun from the parts likely to come into that person’s possession in the course of that trade or business,the chief officer of police may, if he thinks fit, by notice in writing given to that person exempt his transactions in those parts and accessories, so long as the notice is in force, from all or any of the requirements of section 40 of this Act and Schedule 4 thereto.

 

So if someone just re blued barrels or cuts them down a bit or whatever and cannot assemble a working shotgun from the component parts he can ask the chief officer title written authorisation to carry out these activites without being a rfd under section 4 or providing he has otherwise got the necessary authority ie has the barrellsbor whatever less than 72 hours and is à section 2 cert holder.

 

Simples

Edited February 6, 2013 by GingerCat

[evo]

chrikey that just took me 10 mins to read and i,m still non the wiser, :hmm:

[GingerCat]

I hate predictive text

Edited February 6, 2013 by GingerCat

[JonathanL]

"shot gun" has the meaning assigned to it by section 1(3)(a) of this Act and, in sections 3(1) and 45(2) of this Act and in the definition of "firearms dealer", includes any component part of a shot gun and any accessory to a shot gun designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the gun;

 

There you go, it says it quite clearly that it includes any componet part, the law isint straight forward and is notq codified with legal precedents often supersedeing what us written. Until that point is clarified in a court if law it is prudent to assume the spirit of the act means that sec 2 mirrors sec 1 as far as component parts are concerned.

 

No, again, once again after many, many times of saying it; Section 57, in it's final paragraph, says quite specifically that component parts that are parts on non-section 1 guns are excluded from the definition of 'firearm'. Please read it, it's been quoted several times on this thread.

 

J.

[GingerCat]

Are you sure? Here is the full section, either way I have my opinion and I think the law is quite clear, at least to me.

 

Interpretation.

 

(1)In this Act, the expression “firearm” means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes—

(a)any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not; and

(b)any component part of such a lethal or prohibited weapon; and

©any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon;and so much of section 1 of this Act as excludes any description of firearm from the category of firearms to which that section applies shall be construed as also excluding component parts of, and accessories to, firearms of that description.

[F1(1A). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .]

(2)In this Act, the expression “ammunition” means ammunition for any firearm and includes grenades, bombs and other like missiles, whether capable of use with a firearm or not, and also includes prohibited ammunition.

[F2(2A)In this Act “self-loading” and “pump-action” in relation to any weapon mean respectively that it is designed or adapted (otherwise than as mentioned in section 5(1)(a)) so that it is automatically re-loaded or that it is so designed or adapted that it is re–loaded by the manual operation of the fore–end or forestock of the weapon.

(2B)In this Act “revolver”, in relation to a smooth-bore gun, means a gun containing a series of chambers which revolve when the gun is fired.]

(3)For purposes of sections 45, 46, 50, 51(4) and 52 of this Act, the offences under this Act relating specifically to air weapons are those under sections 22(4), 22(5), 23(1) and 24(4).

(4)In this Act—

“acquire” means hire, accept as a gift or borrow and “acquisition” shall be construed accordingly;

“air weapon” has the meaning assigned to it by section 1(3)(B) of this Act;

[F3“another member State” means a member State other than the United Kingdom, and “other member States”shall be construed accordingly;]

“area” means a police area;

[F4“Article 7 authority” means a document issued by virtue of section 32A(1)(b) or (2) of this Act;]

[F5“British Transport Police Force” means the constables appointed under section 53 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949;]

“certificate” (except in a context relating to the registration of firearms dealers) and “certificate under this Act” mean a firearm certificate or a shot gun certificate and—

(a)“firearm certificate” means a certificate granted by a chief officer of police under this Act in respect of any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies and includes a certificate granted in Northern Ireland under section 1 of the M1Firearms Act 1920 or under an enactment of the Parliament of Northern Ireland amending or substituted for that section; and

(B)“shot gun certificate” means a certificate granted by a chief officer of police under this Act and authorising a person to possess shot guns;

[F6“civilian officer” means—

(a)a person employed by a police authority or the Corporation of the City of London who is under the direction and control of a chief officer of police; F7. . .

(b). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .]

[F8“European firearms pass” means a document to which the holder of a certificate under this Act is entitled by virtue of section 32A(1)(a) of this Act;

“European weapons directive”means the directive of the Council of the European Communities No. 91/477/EEC M2 (directive on the control of the acquisition and possession of weapons);]

“firearms dealer” means a person who, by way of trade or business,

(a)[F9manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves firearms or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies orshot guns; or

(b)sells or transfers air weapons.]

“imitation firearm” means any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm (other than such a weapon as is mentioned in section 5(1)(B) of this Act) whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile;

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F10

“premises” includes any land;

“prescribed” means prescribed by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act;

“prohibited weapon” and “prohibited ammunition” have the meanings assigned to them by section 5(2) of this Act;

“public place” includes any [F11highway][F11road within the meaning of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984)] and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise;

“registered”, in relation to a firearms dealer, means registered either—

(a)in Great Britain, under section 33 of this Act, or

(b)in Northern Ireland, under section 8 of the M3Firearms Act 1920 or any enactment of the Parliament of Northern Ireland amending or substituted for that section,

and references to “the register”, “registration” and a “certificate of registration” shall be construed accordingly, except in section 40;

[F12“rifle”includes carbine;]

“shot gun” has the meaning assigned to it by section 1(3)(a) of this Act and, in sections 3(1) and 45(2) of this Act and in the definition of “firearms dealer”, includes any component part of a shot gun and any accessory to a shot gun designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the gun;

“slaughtering instrument” means a firearm which is specially designed or adapted for the instantaneous slaughter of animals or for the instantaneous stunning of animals with a view to slaughtering them; and

“transfer” includes let on hire, give, lend and part with possession, and “transferee” and “transferor” shall be construed accordingly.

[F13(4A)For the purposes of any reference in this Act to the use of any firearm or ammunition for a purpose not authorised by the European weapons directive, the directive shall be taken to authorise the use of a firearm or ammunition as or with a slaughtering instrument and the use of a firearm and ammunition—

(a)for sporting purposes;

(b)for the shooting of vermin, or, in the course of carrying on activities in connection with the management of any estate, of other wildlife; and

©for competition purposes and target shooting outside competitions.]

(5)The definitions in subsections (1) to (3) above apply to the provisions of this Act except where the context otherwise requires.

(6)For purposes of this Act—

(a)the length of the barrel of a firearm shall be measured from the muzzle to the point at which the charge is exploded on firing; and

(b)a shot gun or an air weapon shall be deemed to be loaded if there is ammunition in the chamber or barrel or in any magazine or other device which is in such a position that the ammunition can be fed into the chamber or barrel by the manual or automatic operation of some part of the gun or weapon.

[JonathanL]

Section 3 deals with repairs, having barrels re blued can count as a repair. It says the following..Business and other transactions with firearms and ammunition.

 

(1)A person commits an offence if, by way of trade or business, he—

(a)manufactures, sells, transfers, repairs, tests or proves any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun; F1. . .

(b)exposes for sale or transfer, or has in his possession for sale, transfer, repair, test or proof any such firearm or ammunition, or a shot gun, [F2or

©sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or transfer,]without being registered under this Act as a firearms dealer.

 

(2)It is an offence for a person to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire it or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.

(3)It is an offence for a person to undertake the repair, test or proof of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, for any other person in the United Kingdom other than a registered firearms dealer as such, unless that other produces or causes to be produced a firearm certificate authorising him to have possession of the firearm or ammunition or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to have possession of it without holding a certificate.

(4)Subsections (1) to (3) above have effect subject to any exemption under subsequent provisions of this Part of this Act.

(5)A person commits an offence if, with a view to purchasing or acquiring, or procuring the repair, test or proof of, any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun, he produces a false certificate or a certificate in which any false entry has been made, or personates a person to whom a certificate has been granted, or [F3knowingly or recklessly makes a statement false in any material particular].

(6)It is an offence for a pawnbroker to take in pawn any firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or a shot gun.

 

Now as we saw later in section 57 where it says a section 1 is à section 1 until its something else under another section and a shotgun is à shotgun even when its just the barrells or other component part, we can say with some confidence that having barrells repaired via means of re blueing them would require someone to have the necessary paperwork allowing them possession, either a section 2 certificate or be employed by a gunsmith (who is registered as stated elsewhere in the legislation) to be acting lawfully.

 

He needs to be an RFD is he is doing the work 'by way of trade or business'. If he isn't doing it by way of trade or business then section 57 exempts component parts that are not parts of section 1 guns from control.

 

Please actually read the last para of section 57. It exempts those parts from control. If you think it means something else please tell me but the police, home office and the majority of RFD's concur with what I ( and others) have said on here.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

In fact this very point has been clarified in law in section 40 so there is no point in argueing, the chief officer needs to give dispensation

 

Exemption from s. 40 in case of trade in shot gun components.

 

If it appears to the chief officer of police that—

 

(a)a person required to be registered as a firearms dealer carries on a trade or business in the course of which he manufactures, tests or repairs component parts or accessories for shot guns, but does not manufacture, test or repair complete shot guns; and

(b)it is impossible to assemble a shot gun from the parts likely to come into that person's possession in the course of that trade or business,the chief officer of police may, if he thinks fit, by notice in writing given to that person exempt his transactions in those parts and accessories, so long as the notice is in force, from all or any of the requirements of section 40 of this Act and Schedule 4 thereto.

 

So if someone just re blued barrels or cuts them down a bit or whatever and cannot assemble a working shotgun from the component parts he can ask the chief officer title written authorisation to carry out these activites without being a rfd under section 4 or providing he has otherwise got the necessary authority ie has the barrellsbor whatever less than 72 hours and is à section 2 cert holder.

 

Simples

 

The key part is 'If it appears that the person needs to be registered as a firearms dealer. He only needs to be registered if he does the work 'by way of trade or business'. Section 57 exempts section 2 components from control so if a person is doing the work other than by way of trade or business then he commits no offence by being in possession of a pair of barrels.

 

J.