andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Hello, Got a almost 2yr old Viz, He is a pet and not a sole gun dog, currently sat next to me sleeping on the sofa.... i guess my question is around distraction recall. senario: walking along off the lead in a woods/lake kinda place along road width paths, IE plently off room to pass others. when i give the command, "Ruben Come" he normally returns well, i've also started adding in 3 pips of the whistle to this and seems to be working well. So, other dogs walking along too, Ruben see said dog and i give him a stay command, most of the times he stays (if he's close by) and waits till i say "OK" which is his release, at which point i will use the "Heel" command which i've been working on lately, but some times he will slowly start to speed up and then just shoots off not giving a spud about me... or if he see's a dog ahead and i do too so call him back, he comes back but the moment i release him hes shooting off a good 100-150m? away to play with this other dog, ignoring my command. i dont really see this as his fault as much as mine, yes he isnt listening to me as he should and i know he is having alot of fun playing with other dogs which i do allow but i want it to be under my saying so, and ends when i tell him.... some times i try calling him and running away this works ok, sometimes the whistle works well ect but sometimes its him deciding when to return..... not cool! it not that bad or that often but i want it sorted really, i dont want him stuck to my heel the whole walk as he loves to run around the woods and it helps to exercise him also and i dont want to deprive him of that.... but when hes sodded off too far there is so little you can really do, i never run after him, and do hide some times if he goes on round a corner out of my sight and he does comes shooting back looking for me (great) any input on what i should try or be doing? Cheers Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Re inforce the stop whistle and recall let him no he has done good and i know it sounds daft but i just growle at mine and she knows im not happy but thats my way im sure someone will give you the right answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 i growl too to show him something is wrong around the house lol he does do well, it just seems some days your back to square one, bit more elbow grease needed i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 if you don't think you will get compliance don't give the command IMO, sometimes that's harder to do than say- defiantly don't repeat it as it teaches dis obedience. Best cure is predict the situation and engineer it as a training exercise or prevent it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETO Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) i do too so call him back, he comes back but the moment i release him hes shooting off a good 100-150m? away to play with this other dog, ignoring my command. Your problem is - you're releasing him. Why not leash him until the dog is out of sight? Or teach a leave? Or wait till the dog has passed but throw some treats about to keep him busy and interested in you. The latter one means dog = interaction from you. The thing is - that dog over there is SO much more fun than you, yes you feed him, you walk him, you train him - but do you play with him, interact with him on walks? I mean no offence by that of course. I have one the exact same so I share your pain - you'll get there, we're still getting there and he's 3 but lots of improvement Edited February 1, 2013 by ETO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Back to basics mate, then move on.. must be bomb proof before deciding any other commands: Work on recall, STOP is a must: (Blow to Stop):(Whistle): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 if you don't think you will get compliance don't give the command IMO, sometimes that's harder to do than say- defiantly don't repeat it as it teaches dis obedience. Best cure is predict the situation and engineer it as a training exercise or prevent it. duely noted, dont give a command if you cant enforce it, i knew that but didnt think about it here... school boy error thanks for pointing it out, an extra set of eyes is always handy in these things. would you just walk off if it happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Your problem is - you're releasing him. Why not leash him until the dog is out of sight? Or teach a leave? Or wait till the dog has passed but throw some treats about to keep him busy and interested in you. The latter one means dog = interaction from you. The thing is - that dog over there is SO much more fun than you, yes you feed him, you walk him, you train him - but do you play with him, interact with him on walks? I mean no offence by that of course. I have one the exact same so I share your pain - you'll get there, we're still getting there and he's 3 but lots of improvement good point, he knows leave in the sense to leave something if i tell him and he's good at that. so could try apply it here too. see this is the hard thing, sometimes if hes got his sights on something a treat wont deter him from it.... had it earlier today, he went and saw another dog, sniffed and carried on, ran on ahead, i brought him back, got him to sit by me then the dog came back but i made him wait while this other dog played around him (he did good here as he was close to me so didnt think he could get away with anything lol ) but i offered a treat and he just ignored till the other dog was gone. no offence at all mate, i think you probably have a point, i do play with him, chuck stuff and mess around, but not loads, i cuddle him more then a play with him i guess. but i do go by a "nothing in life in is free" rule where by to get a cuddle or scratch he must sit or come or "touch" ect and that improved the master/dog bond i felt when i started that. i'll get there as you say, its just doing it. my mind had wondered to a E collar so i can give a vibrate when he ignored my command and carries on running, i dont know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Back to basics mate, then move on.. must be bomb proof before deciding any other commands: Work on recall, STOP is a must: (Blow to Stop):(Whistle): true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) No "E" collar mate, shows you lost the PLOT: its you that is at fault, NOT the dog: You have train the owner First: Remember that when training:: Edited February 1, 2013 by subsonicnat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) I don't agree with giving dogs treats as part of their training, the work itself should be reward enough if it done right. I do agree that the dog should be on its lead if it cant be trusted to do as its told. repeating a command and the dog ignoring you is not the way forward. Ask the first time, tell it the second time and make it the third time is the rules I work with, with my dogs. Try a long drag lead, if you can see it may ignore you pick it up ready. As Kent says "Best cure is predict the situation and engineer it as a training exercise or prevent it." Edited February 1, 2013 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I don't agree with giving dogs treats as part of their training, the work itself should be reward enough if it done right. I do agree that the dog should be on its lead if it cant be trusted to do as its told. repeating a command and the dog ignoring you is not the way forward. Ask the first time, tell it the second time and make it the third time is the rules I work with, with my dogs. Try a long drag lead, if you can see it may ignore you pick it up ready. As Kent says "Best cure is predict the situation and engineer it as a training exercise or prevent it." whats a drag lead sorry? No "E" collar mate, shows you lost the PLOT: its you that is at fault, NOT the dog: You have train the owner First: Remember that when training:: True, but i know he hears me and i know he knows what it means lol like children i guess!! trying their limits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) "whats a drag lead sorry?" Get your self a Greyhound collar put it on your dog. Buy one of those plastic coated washing lines and cut off about 15 yards and attach it to the collar. Don't make a handle or tie a knot at the end and you will find it wont snag and you can let your dog run free with it. see a problem coming and you can pick the end up ready to pull your dog back if it ignores you. This is only to be used when training not working! I train all my young dogs with a drag lead. Edited February 1, 2013 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 (edited) cool, mine runs through alot of undergrowth and woodland ect like a mad man.... would be a tad warey at first to try but but would work! Edited February 1, 2013 by andy198712 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 duely noted, dont give a command if you cant enforce it, i knew that but didnt think about it here... school boy error thanks for pointing it out, an extra set of eyes is always handy in these things. would you just walk off if it happened? Walk off? if I took that route I would run but depends on the dog. Don't go near an E-collar its misuse of the wrong tool for the job (like trying to hammer in nails with a saw IMO) e-collars are an aversion tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Walk off? if I took that route I would run but depends on the dog. Don't go near an E-collar its misuse of the wrong tool for the job (like trying to hammer in nails with a saw IMO) e-collars are an aversion tool yeah i normally run and comes running most times, either worried of being left behind or to chase me i dont know, but works well normally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I would say most off the advice above is pretty good. I'd probably suggest gettin a lesson off a pro trainer will sort/ or show u how to sort it easily. I think i'd use the long line/drag lead too, work it into training so the dog dosnae realise its on and then either blow recall or stop (assuming the dog knows and understands the signal/command) and stand on the line if dog ignores so it comes to a stop pretty quickly, basically ur trying to trick the dog innto thinking u have a mystical connection with it that extends when its away. Depending on ur dog and it's nature (viz tend to be pretty soft generally) and the situation i'd chase my dog down making a racket, walk it back to the spot where it ignored my command and give it a stare/growl and enforce the command followed by praise when it obeys. But depending on the dog type not for everyone that and possibly not a viz, my dogs are used to it and know its only a growling they get so will just lie down pretty quickly and not run away. I also now use treats more often esp for a sloppy recall, years ago would never have but don't do any real harm to tidy a recall up, but no decent working dog will break of a chase for a treat, so the basic's have to be done normally I have no doubt u could use an E collar BUT i would not reccommend it, far more chance of doing harm than good and no reason plenty off things to help cure it U probably should not really be allowing ur dog to free run in a wood, ur dog could pick up a lot off bad habits, chasing etc, also the damage it does to woodland birds/animals even just the disturbance factor not fair on the animals that have to try and live there, u'd be surprised how often i get dogs free running throu pheasant woods i the middle off nowhere, then u wonder why not many birds in it the following shoot I do not let any off my dogs free run in woodland EVER, they get to free run together in safe stock free fields and rest off walk at heel whole way either on or off lead.prob only time running in wood will be working or training, even for training i always train in the same 2 or 3 small areas so to leave as much woodland undistubed esp throu spring summer nesting time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 fair point, i am carful where he runs, this is national trust and fairly high volume of walkers and dogs so A no shooting, B not much wildlife due to high volume (kinda proves your point mind) C jus those bloody grey squirells about, but i deffinatly see your point and it gripes at me when dogs are let off over farm land or game land that they dont have permission to do so. i dont think my Viz would even get slightly tired from walking to heel, i cycle as fast as i can on same place and he just shrugs it off lol i'll keep an eye out for a washing line in the local shops and give it a try. i was doing one to one training with a dog trainer but she talked way to much about ****(non related chit chat) and been looking for another one since very greatful for the help on this guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 U can still let ur dog free run but in a field with nothing to chase or cause havoc or try training it to hunt and quarter and turn on a whistle the way they're meant to so it is running but under control.U could have ur dog constantly zig zaging back and forward across a field probably putting in more miles in a smaller area than free running randomly about. The key thing is control, althou a bit off a contridiction that, control and hpr in same sentance the problem with woodland is too many varibles u can't control and too many places it can be out of sight up to no good or places for game/animals/birds to hide that will result in a chase. Also try tiring it mentally, if it retrieves to hand work up the distance off memory retrives more to tire/excercise it than for practical use in field, hiding smelly tennis balls in cover and let it hunt for them, basically trying to make it think a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 U can still let ur dog free run but in a field with nothing to chase or cause havoc or try training it to hunt and quarter and turn on a whistle the way they're meant to so it is running but under control.U could have ur dog constantly zig zaging back and forward across a field probably putting in more miles in a smaller area than free running randomly about. The key thing is control, althou a bit off a contridiction that, control and hpr in same sentance the problem with woodland is too many varibles u can't control and too many places it can be out of sight up to no good or places for game/animals/birds to hide that will result in a chase. Also try tiring it mentally, if it retrieves to hand work up the distance off memory retrives more to tire/excercise it than for practical use in field, hiding smelly tennis balls in cover and let it hunt for them, basically trying to make it think a bit Pointing breeds are in many way easier to train to hunt under control than a spaniel, once you get them pointing. stopping them hunting? well that's a different matter "LOL" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy198712 Posted February 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 to an extent its in there breed, mine was pointing from a puppy, its getting them to know what i want pointed and holding it before loosing interest. good shout on the mental tiring, i put him the porch and hide treats around the house then give him the "find it" command and he loves that! thanks for the in put guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbjones01 Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 Pointing breeds are in many way easier to train to hunt under control than a spaniel, once you get them pointing. stopping them hunting? well that's a different matter "LOL" Kent are you for real i take it this quote was a joke right ?? Andy i train for work and field trial Hungarian Vizslas, having won numerous awards in competitions and succsefully picking up and shooting over them. I can see where your coming from and have had the exact same problem my self with one of my dogs. it takes about 3 years to fully train a vizsla and at nearly 2 years you have by the sounds of it come on a long way, however you need to reinforce who is in charge of this relationship as vizsla's go through several independant stages in their development. initially i suggest you get him to focus on you , go back to basics, each time you go some where with him on the lead you go first ie thro a door , gate, room make him sit you go first it shows your in charge. secondly when you let him off the lead sit him, remove the lead and keep him sitting then only let him go when he looks into your eyes asking permision, it will take a few minutes to start but he will son catch on. all this reinforces your the pack leader and he needs to focus on you for permision to do things. next step will be to reinforce the stop whistle, do not stand for him disobeying it. initially start off close by then build up the distance. dont put him in a position to fail (as in other dogs) until you are sure he will stay put then when you think he is ready when out walking you spot somebody with dogs approaching blow your stop whistle make he sits, until they have all passed then praise him for staying its amazing how quick they catch on, remember vizsla's are very inteligent dogs very skillfull in mastering hunting pointing and retrieving but can easily be spoilt by owners who in their ignorance dont know how to treat this special breed. if you want look up a dog trainer from the west country who specialises in HPR's then Steve Kimberly is well worth visiting. or if ever your down hampshire way id be happy to show you the ropes best wishes mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETO Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 good point, he knows leave in the sense to leave something if i tell him and he's good at that. so could try apply it here too. see this is the hard thing, sometimes if hes got his sights on something a treat wont deter him from it.... had it earlier today, he went and saw another dog, sniffed and carried on, ran on ahead, i brought him back, got him to sit by me then the dog came back but i made him wait while this other dog played around him (he did good here as he was close to me so didnt think he could get away with anything lol ) but i offered a treat and he just ignored till the other dog was gone. no offence at all mate, i think you probably have a point, i do play with him, chuck stuff and mess around, but not loads, i cuddle him more then a play with him i guess. but i do go by a "nothing in life in is free" rule where by to get a cuddle or scratch he must sit or come or "touch" ect and that improved the master/dog bond i felt when i started that. i'll get there as you say, its just doing it. my mind had wondered to a E collar so i can give a vibrate when he ignored my command and carries on running, i dont know.... The nothing in life is free" is a brilliant way to train. Sometimes it's worth just having a bit of silly time with them. I chase mine - then run in the opposite direction and let them chase me.. just play silly beggars with them. Louie is the same with - treats didn't work at first, neither do toys. So I upped it. I started taking out cheese and hotdogs instead of kibble. And cooked chicken and now I have a dehydrator - I take out dried heart, liver and kidney. I am so much more interesting with these. Normally I advocate only positive methods but noise aversion might work well here. Training discs in particular. A friend has a collie that would be oblivious to everything she tried. One day she gave up and threw a lead at him - well in front of him but it gave him enough of a stop for her to then recall him and reward him for that. Then she bought some training discs and when he'd start off after another dog - she'd throw them in front of him (making sure he didn't see it was her that was throwing them) and recalling him when he stopped. He now doesn't run over to other dogs anymore. But then I'd try anything before and E - collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnabbs Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Completely agree with Mark, I have a WHV and have experienced similar problems. Keep in control of him at all times don't let him mooch about pleasing himself for 15mins thems expect him to react to commands in the way that you want. They need to know you are on top of them all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Kent are you for real i take it this quote was a joke right ?? No! Once you get them pointing they are easier to train as you get notice to get on their case, indeed even the change in body language as they get a direction with a spaniel that notice can be a backside heading over the horizon as its quarry is mostly stumbled over and explodes from cover right under its nose. granted the nose will often go down if your not careful with a HPR and the same will occur- but then it just becomes a big long range spaniel. the rest of you post was maybe better split as I cannot see anything that refers me in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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