JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 No - I'm suggesting if you go over the physical capacity of the cabinet - not the manufacturers capacity....Christ on a bike! If the FEO visits your house and see's a nice new 5 gun cabinet and says "oh, you'd get 7 guns in there" and then see's dickars has bought 10 he will most likely call and ask him if he needs to buy another cabinet - as he has probably gone over the capacity... Regards, Gizer No, you specifically said that the police had to 'clear' a cabinet for a certain number of guns which is not true. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 So his notes on what he is supposed to do, and the fact that he has to view the capacity has nothing to do with him clearing it? Why do they want him to check it then? You have been smoking crack haven't you? You can always spot the bloke who knows he's losing the argument because he resorts to insults out of frustration. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evo Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) It's ability to safely contain a firearm - it's CAPACITY to hold the firearm - if you can't fit the friggin thing in then it isn't much use is it? until the day my father died he had in his possesion 4x section 1 firearms and 3 section 2 shotguns,not once did he ever own a gun cabinate in his entire life,he stored all his guns in the loft and had done so since 1950 without a single problem, my fao told me i did not need a cabinate as long as my guns would be out of sight to the general public and also any family members would not have access to them, this he explained meant locking them out of sight in a cupboard and also a lock on the room door, he advised on a cabinate out the way as this was the safest option,but i was told i didn,t have to have a cabinate as long as they where secured now i,ll carry on reading the rest of this interesting thread Edited February 5, 2013 by evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta06 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Guns in the UK are a privilege - not a right... No they aren't!!! Bearing arms in the UK is a right - that's why if you have good reason to posess and are of suitable character, the Chief of Police cannot refuse you a certificate :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) When I said clearing - this was in the "approving" sense, if the FEO comes to see a cabinet and you cannot fit the number if guns you have in said cabinet - he will have something to say (or secure them otherwise ) Johnathan - I did not result to insults - grow up! My answer to the OP stands - call your FEO and get him to clear what you have - it will do you no favours listening to bar room Solicitors just to prove "you know your rights" he will respect common sense a lot more and you being proactive a lot more than you waiting until he calls and spouting off section 17, verse four, chapter 19, part two, the sequel... Regards "Gizer" Edited February 4, 2013 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Guns in the UK are a privilege - not a right... No they aren't!!! Bearing arms in the UK is a right - that's why if you have good reason to posess and are of suitable character, the Chief of Police cannot refuse you a certificate :-) you apply - you have no right to own before you do so therefore, like a driving license it is not a given that you will get one.... So it's a privilege if the powers that be decide you are fit to have them... Regards, Gixer Edited February 4, 2013 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogey Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 This isn't true. The police do not 'set' or 'clear' the capacity. You must store the guns to which your certificate relates in accordance with the safe storage condition on it. How you do that is entirely up to you and if you fail to adhere to the condition then you will get done and rightly so. If you have a three gun cabinet and can get twenty guns in by stripping them to their component parts then that is up to you and you commit no offence in doing so. J. yes :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta06 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Oh Gixer!! You poor chap!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Oh Gixer!! You poor chap!! Don't worry yourself about it - i'm not......the fact of the matter is (whether we like to admit it or not) that there are many restrictions and stipulations in place that arent nessasarily written in a document somewhere - yet we all jump through a hoop or two. I'll continue running things by my FEO - no forum topic will change that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Imagine if you own 1 shotgun and a collection of 11 muzzle loading pistols.... I can't imagine any sensible FEO asking you to fit a huge '12 gun safe'. Besides, manufacturers sizes vary massively. I've got a 5 gun safe, but it's extra tall and extra deep. Horizontally, 5 shotguns can fit, but it's deep enough for two rows. I've seen other '5 gun safes' that can barely fit 4 in. Who's to say you only have 3 rifles, but they all have massive scopes so don't all fit in at once... The FEO isn't responsible for how many guns your safe can take - you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Just to make sure we are clear - at no point did i say manufacturers capacities are what is taken into account, what I said is that if the FEO looks at the cabinet he will check to see what physical capacity it has and go by this if you buy guns in the future - i.e.- if he says the cabinet will accomadate 7 guns and you then buy 9 he will most likely call you and ask if you are putting any additional storage in (as a previous poster has mentioned happened to him) Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Just to make sure we are clear - at no point did i say manufacturers capacities are what is taken into account, what I said is that if the FEO looks at the cabinet he will check to see what physical capacity it has and go by this if you buy guns in the future - i.e.- if he says the cabinet will accomadate 7 guns and you then buy 9 he will most likely call you and ask if you are putting any additional storage in (as a previous poster has mentioned happened to him) Regards, Gixer That seems fair enough. As long as if you say 'no', he can come round and check they all fit in, job done. Admittedly, I don't know if it's really the FEO's responsibility to do that. But it seems like a logical check-up, and I wouldn't mind them doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Guns in the UK are a privilege - not a right... No they aren't!!! Bearing arms in the UK is a right - that's why if you have good reason to posess and are of suitable character, the Chief of Police cannot refuse you a certificate :-) I wouldn't go quite that far as the phrase 'bearing arms' tends to suggest something along the lines of keeping them to fight with. You are, however, quite correct in that the Firearms Act is specifically worded in such a way that the police cannot refuse you if you meet the criteria it lays down. Hence, it is a right that every applicant who meets the criteria must be granted a certificate. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 When I said clearing - this was in the "approving" sense, if the FEO comes to see a cabinet and you cannot fit the number if guns you have in said cabinet - he will have something to say (or secure them otherwise ) I know, that is my whole point. The police do not 'approve' a cabinet for a certain number of guns. If they did then it would mean that you could not possess more guns than they had 'approved' your cabinet for which is not the case. They may make a not on their records as to how many they think will go in but that is in no way 'approving' anything. If they think you can store 5 and you buy 10 then it is not the case that your security has suddenly become 'unapproved'. Johnathan - I did not result to insults - grow up! You did - several times - and I'm sure others will agree with that. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 you apply - you have no right to own before you do so therefore, like a driving license it is not a given that you will get one.... So it's a privilege if the powers that be decide you are fit to have them... Regards, Gixer Wrong, if you meet the criteria they must grant a certificate. Just like if you pass a driving test the DVLA must issue you a driving licence. They have no choice. You clearly do not understand the definition of 'priviledge' - it is something which is discretionary and can be witheld for any reason or no reason, something which is in the gift of the giver and which he does not have to give. That is not the case with an FAC or SGC and is why there is an appeal procedure via the courts. If it were a priviledge then there could be no appeal procedure relating to it as there would be no point of law on which to claim that the decision had been made in error. J. Don't worry yourself about it - i'm not......the fact of the matter is (whether we like to admit it or not) that there are many restrictions and stipulations in place that arent nessasarily written in a document somewhere - yet we all jump through a hoop or two. I'll continue running things by my FEO - no forum topic will change that.... No there aren't. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Just to make sure we are clear - at no point did i say manufacturers capacities are what is taken into account, what I said is that if the FEO looks at the cabinet he will check to see what physical capacity it has and go by this if you buy guns in the future - i.e.- if he says the cabinet will accomadate 7 guns and you then buy 9 he will most likely call you and ask if you are putting any additional storage in (as a previous poster has mentioned happened to him) Regards, Gixer Ah, so, we now have a complete about-face from your previous position of saying that the police had to 'clear' or 'approve' your cabinet, then. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 When I said clearing - this was in the "approving" sense, if the FEO comes to see a cabinet and you cannot fit the number if guns you have in said cabinet - he will have something to say (or secure them otherwise ) Johnathan - I did not result to insults - grow up! My answer to the OP stands - call your FEO and get him to clear what you have - it will do you no favours listening to bar room Solicitors just to prove "you know your rights" he will respect common sense a lot more and you being proactive a lot more than you waiting until he calls and spouting off section 17, verse four, chapter 19, part two, the sequel... Regards "Gizer" Whilst I have been called worse I hardly feel you used the term Dickarse, in at least 2 posts aimed in my direction, as a term of endearment, or other comments you made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Wrong, if you meet the criteria they must grant a certificate. Just like if you pass a driving test the DVLA must issue you a driving licence. They have no choice. You clearly do not understand the definition of 'priviledge' - it is something which is discretionary and can be witheld for any reason or no reason, something which is in the gift of the giver and which he does not have to give. That is not the case with an FAC or SGC and is why there is an appeal procedure via the courts. If it were a priviledge then there could be no appeal procedure relating to it as there would be no point of law on which to claim that the decision had been made in error. J. No there aren't. J. Privilege - "A special advantage or immunity - OR a benefit not enjoyed by all! - a certificate is a benefit not enjoyed by all - why do you say anyone is wrong if they dont share the same interpretation as you? and on the unwritten stipulations or restrictions - explain why so many have had a mentor condition or caliber restriction put in place or why they need to demonstrate experience - that is not in black and white anywhere yet many are held to it - I never had such restrictions put in place and went straight onto a large CF caliber yet many on here struggle to get CF at all - if it was as black and white as you say this wouldn't be the case would it?? your attitude is not that of a debate but one of an arrogant "I am always correct" - as i say - you need to learn that your interpretation is not automatically the only correct one. Regards, Gixer Whilst I have been called worse I hardly feel you used the term Dickarse, in at least 2 posts aimed in my direction, as a term of endearment, or other comments you made! It was in jest - the same way you failed to correct my user name in three previous posts....did it really get to you that much that you felt insulted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Privilege - "A special advantage or immunity - OR a benefit not enjoyed by all! - a certificate is a benefit not enjoyed by all - why do you say anyone is wrong if they dont share the same interpretation as you? and on the unwritten stipulations or restrictions - explain why so many have had a mentor condition or caliber restriction put in place or why they need to demonstrate experience - that is not in black and white anywhere yet many are held to it - I never had such restrictions put in place and went straight onto a large CF caliber yet many on here struggle to get CF at all - if it was as black and white as you say this wouldn't be the case would it?? your attitude is not that of a debate but one of an arrogant "I am always correct" - as i say - you need to learn that your interpretation is not automatically the only correct one. Regards, Gixer It was in jest - the same way you failed to correct my user name in three previous posts....did it really get to you that much that you felt insulted? Spell checker has issues with some names, as I do with dyslexia, if your name was wrong it was an error, I don't think I called you anything insulting whereas I don't see Dickarse as a spelling error! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Ah, so, we now have a complete about-face from your previous position of saying that the police had to 'clear' or 'approve' your cabinet, then. J. where have i about faced? - i still say that an FEO will check how many guns you can fit in a cabinet and when you get over that amount will start to ask questions - if you cant answer them he won't just say "ok" Is your best response to try and twist my posts to suit you? that really seems that you have thrown your toys out of the pram due to someone questioning your usual spouting of the "black and white law" - get over the fact not all interpretation is the same as yours! who are you Judge Dredd? Regards, Gixer Spell checker has issues with some names, as I do with dyslexia, if your name was wrong it was an error, I don't think I called you anything insulting whereas I don't see Dickarse as a spelling error! Dekers, are we really at the point of this? i'm sorry if i hurt your fragile sensibilities - please take this as an apology - we have spoken on here in the past and I assumed you would spot the play on words - not take it as a declaration of war or anything like that...I advise you stay off of THL as you will get really offended! if the above upset you. Edited February 4, 2013 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 gixer1 Perhaps you should read your post #2 again, and perhaps you should also stop digging, this thread is a good 3 pages too long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Privilege - "A special advantage or immunity - OR a benefit not enjoyed by all! - a certificate is a benefit not enjoyed by all - why do you say anyone is wrong if they dont share the same interpretation as you? A certificate isn't a 'special' advantage because it is open to anyone who cares to apply for one. Very few people are actually prohibited from being granted one being only people who have been sentenced to certain terms of imprisonment. Besides, a priviledge is entirely discretionary, if it weren't then it could not be a priviledge, a certificate is not - the Firearms Act says it is not because it says a certificate shall be granted. You cannot have a priviledge which you have an entitlement to. Therefore, it is not a priviledge. A certificate is a priviledge in Northern Ireland because the Northern Ireland Firearms Order says that the police 'may' grant a certificate, not 'shall' grant one. and on the unwritten stipulations or restrictions - explain why so many have had a mentor condition or caliber restriction put in place or why they need to demonstrate experience - that is not in black and white anywhere yet many are held to it That's not an 'unwitten' restriction. The Act says that that police can append appropriate conditions to certificates. your attitude is not that of a debate but one of an arrogant "I am always correct" - as i say - you need to learn that your interpretation is not automatically the only correct one. No, my attitude is one of not trying to dream up new defintions of English words simply to suit my agenda. My attitude is also one of wanting to make sure that shooters get the correct interpretation of the law and not wanting to encourage the mentality of running to the police to ask pointless questions which takes up their time and rescources when those things are better utilised dealing with applications. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 where have i about faced? - i still say that an FEO will check how many guns you can fit in a cabinet and when you get over that amount will start to ask questions - if you cant answer them he won't just say "ok" I've already explained. You said right up near the start of this thread that the police had to 'clear' or 'approve' your cabinet for X number of guns. By that wording you are saying that if you exceed that number then your cabinet becomes 'uncleared' or 'unapproved' and that some sanctions may be applicable. None of that is true. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) A certificate isn't a 'special' advantage because it is open to anyone who cares to apply for one. Very few people are actually prohibited from being granted one being only people who have been sentenced to certain terms of imprisonment. Besides, a priviledge is entirely discretionary, if it weren't then it could not be a priviledge, a certificate is not - the Firearms Act says it is not because it says a certificate shall be granted. You cannot have a priviledge which you have an entitlement to. Therefore, it is not a priviledge. A certificate is a priviledge in Northern Ireland because the Northern Ireland Firearms Order says that the police 'may' grant a certificate, not 'shall' grant one. That's not an 'unwitten' restriction. The Act says that that police can append appropriate conditions to certificates. No, my attitude is one of not trying to dream up new defintions of English words simply to suit my agenda. My attitude is also one of wanting to make sure that shooters get the correct interpretation of the law and not wanting to encourage the mentality of running to the police to ask pointless questions which takes up their time and rescources when those things are better utilised dealing with applications. J. If the chief constable or FEO do not feel you make the grade - you will not recieve a cert, therfore they make the decision - you choose to apply for one but you are by no means gauranteed to get it. And you think "Appropriate" isn't a little vague??? it doesn't mention any direct points that will or will not result in certain restriction/condition. correct interpretation in your eyes.. I've already explained. You said right up near the start of this thread that the police had to 'clear' or 'approve' your cabinet for X number of guns. By that wording you are saying that if you exceed that number then your cabinet becomes 'uncleared' or 'unapproved' and that some sanctions may be applicable. None of that is true. J. I did not say the police - is that you twisting things again you cheeky monkey , and if you are not able to accomodate the amount of guns you have you will be "uncleared" and they will apply restrictions. Edited February 4, 2013 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 While a feo takes note of the nominal capacity of your cabinet, I believe that it is understood that more guns can be fitted in, particularly if you start top and tailing them. there are three issues however 1, if you've a got an "x "gun cabinet and lots more than "x" guns you may get checks made to ensure that the guns are all in the cabinet. 2, if you go above a "substantial " number of guns (as defined by firearms security handbook ) then you will need a higher security level. 3, stick too many guns in a cabinet and you risk getting more "cabinet marks" on the guns themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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