New to shotshell reloading

[MAB1954]

I'm new to shot shell reloading and looking for some advice on case selection. I want to start by loading a 24 gram lead shot load for clays. I have read a couple of books including the Lyman shotshell reloading 5th Ed.

The once used cases I have are Lyalvale English Sporter originally loaded with 28 gram of 7.5 shot, case lenght is 70mm. On cutting an empty case in half it appears to be a parallel tube with a seperate plastic base wad. Does anyone have any knowledge of reloading this case?

Every thing I have read points to sticking to reloading data for a case/primer/powder/wad/shot recipe. I have found nothing for the Lyalvale case. Is it best to get Winchester/Remington once fired cases from America and stick to a recipe for that case with a known pressure/velocity end result.

[sitsinhedges]

Just fill them with a CX2000 primer, 21grains of Vectan AS, a B&P T2 wad or similar, 24gram of shot and a crimp finish. Virtually every case you find at the clay ground will be a bog standard parallel tube case and can all be loaded the same way.

[Floating Chamber]

Just fill them with a CX2000 primer, 21grains of Vectan AS, a B&P T2 wad or similar, 24gram of shot and a crimp finish. Virtually every case you find at the clay ground will be a bog standard parallel tube case and can all be loaded the same way.

More and more shells are of the Maxam make. The CX2000 primer may fall out of this type of case and require the 'fatter' G600, Fiocchi 616 or Martignoni 688 primer.

[MAB1954]

Thanks for your replies but its getting confusing. Is that load from published data with pressure/velocity values? What are Maxam make shells? Sorry if this is basic but I'm new to reloading and have only read the american books with load data mainly for Fed/Win/Rem cases.

Been shooting for 40 years but just decided to try reloading as new hobby.

[pestcontrol1]

I struggle to get a cx2000 primer to stay in a lyalvale hull so the hulls that pick up now are either hull or gamebore so if you carnt easly get hold of fiocchi 616 primers i would pick up another type of hull it makes it a hell of alot easyer

pc1

[MAB1954]

Thanks pestcontrol1 that's what I will do or just buy a slab of Winchester cartridges and reload them using the Lyman data.

[Floating Chamber]

Ok.

 

UK MANUFACTURERS USE SEVERAL MAKES OF PRIMED CASES.

 

The Cheddite case is used by ALL UK cartridge manufacturers in some of their products. Usually, a Cheddite case has four 'tabs' in the primer pocket. The slimmer CX50/1000/2000 are fitted.

 

The older type Maxam case, (SAGA, MODENA, OLYMPIC, SUPERB, et al) have no tabs and are fitted with the fatter (UEE) G600 primer. However, the later Maxam cases have tabs too!

 

Cheddite primers are slimmer than their Fiocchi, Maxam, Martignoni counterparts. So, a Cheddite and Maxam will 'fit' nicely in a Cheddite case, but a Cheddite primer will be too slack a fit in a Maxam case and may, indeed, fall out. This can be damaging in a semi-auto.

 

The plot thickens!

 

Eley and Lyalvale use BOTH TYPES OF CASE in their brand leaders, so, a comment like Pestcontrol1's is understandable.

 

The most common Cheddite case will have very low 'brass' and tabs. Examples of these are Gamebore White Gold and Kent Velocity, Hull 65mm, English Sporter * and DanArms Sport.

 

You have to be eagle-eyed and choosy. After over fifty years of home loading, I still fall foul of the odd rogue case!

 

* the darker red old Fiocchi stock have silver 'industrial' 616 primers.

 

You'll get used to it!

 

F.C.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Floating Chamber

[Guest cookoff013]

where do you live? maybe someone local can hook you up.

 

its better to chat to a face. you can pass on alot of info in a short amount of time. even tho these guys here are one of the best resources here.

 

FC & sits know what they`s talking about.

 

are you after fibre or plastiv recipe?

[Floating Chamber]

Compression formed cases are rare these days. All cases that are three part, (excluding Gordon System) are Reifenhäuser parallel tube cases.

[MAB1954]

Thanks for all replies much appreciated.

 

I am based in the North of Scotland in Thurso.

 

On close inspection of the English Sporter cases I have there does seem to be 4 tabs in the primer pocket hence if I understand the above is a Cheddite case so should take a Cheddite primer. So I'm back to considering the load suggested by sitsinhedges instead of following the Lyman book data. How do you know that load is safe in all cartridge cases with a B & P T2 wad or similair?

[Floating Chamber]

Because we have been loading them with B&P Z24 (H24 in the trade) wads since 1990. You can also use the Aquilla 26 or the Vagner Plast (Hellarco) VP13, if you can find them.

 

[Lord Geordie]

Because we have been loading them with B&P Z24 (H24 in the trade) wads since 1990. You can also use the Aquilla 26 or the Vagner Plast (Hellarco) VP13, if you can find them.

 

They are now PT1232.

 

I think the bases on the VP13 was a bit thin for our cousins over the pond's facination of overloading. They are now made with a thicker seal under the guise PT1232

 

 

[Guest cookoff013]

They are now PT1232.

I think the bases on the VP13 was a bit thin for our cousins over the pond's facination of overloading. They are now made with a thicker seal under the guise PT1232

 

lord,

the issues relating to the vp13 wad were widely discussed, the burn through issue even happend with mediocre pressures and average powders. the issue was never with overloading. the powdecups / obturator section takes one hell of a beating, and should not seperate, burn through or tear. this wad happening with a few of the wads. this was inherent with an issue of plastics. the quality / density of the plastics was reduced to cut costs, producing weak plastic obturators. the steel / multimetal plastic wads dont suffer from this, because they were dense enough, and not thinned out. there were photo`s of before and after, highlighting the plastics reduction in quality with regards to old stock and new.

there was a huge "handbags at 20 paces" over the whole thing, whether it was worth looking at wads after firing, thats even something i dont do. if i blast something with 1000ftlbs or more i want it to hold.

as for making the base obtorator thicker is an issue that should have been sorted out before mass production. increasing the polymer content of the resin to its original specification and the old wad design would have cured everything.

 

check it out..

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=225904

http://what-really-happened-at-helarco.weebly.com/1/post/2011/9/who-is-buster88.html

 

there have been many rumors. and bull. however a new manufacturer came to light and they tried to send me some wads about 3 times. never got them

 

but the issue was, it burned through, even at very mild, and i mean, mild at 7000psi on one of the loads, 7000psi isnt much. 12gauge has a 10770psi pressure or 740 bar. for the plastic to melt there is a serious issue there, no other wads do it with the extensive wad collection of fired and unfired wads.

[Lord Geordie]

I quite agree! The base SHOULD have been thicker and the whole issue sorted before the production run. I had read into the burn issues but there were a lot of people that were really happy with the VP13 and I believe they were pointing the blame more toward the ramped up powders being used. I wasn't aware the issue affected lower power loads too! Thanks for that

 

I had been looking for direct replacements for a few wads in the past and came across the PT1232 from Ballistic Products but noticed you need to get them from State side! What I notice about a LOT of stuff from the US is their postage costs are extortionate.

 

I tend to find everything I need either here in the UK or for some items, from Siarm.

 

I noticed recently Fibre wads are about the same here as Europe but I can save a small fortune on Over powder cards from Siarm. I intend getting around 10.000 cards and a few other bits to make the most of the postage. Then I will just get my Fibre Wads here from the UK when I need them.

 

 

 

 

[Guest cookoff013]

I quite agree! The base SHOULD have been thicker and the whole issue sorted before the production run. I had read into the burn issues but there were a lot of people that were really happy with the VP13 and I believe they were pointing the blame more toward the ramped up powders being used. I wasn't aware the issue affected lower power loads too! Thanks for that

 

I had been looking for direct replacements for a few wads in the past and came across the PT1232 from Ballistic Products but noticed you need to get them from State side! What I notice about a LOT of stuff from the US is their postage costs are extortionate.

 

I tend to find everything I need either here in the UK or for some items, from Siarm.

 

I noticed recently Fibre wads are about the same here as Europe but I can save a small fortune on Over powder cards from Siarm. I intend getting around 10.000 cards and a few other bits to make the most of the postage. Then I will just get my Fibre Wads here from the UK when I need them.

the issue wasnt just the thickness of the powder cup, it was the resin used in the polymer (plastic). it originally was very tough but the same thickness, then the plastic got weaker, but the same thickness. then the burn through issues started. then they tried to incorperate a thicker shotcup, but product confidence failed.

 

the original higher percentage polymer plastic worked with the original obturator thickness. but thinning the plastic density didnt pay off. the main issues were burn through during firing, loosing pressure and splitting wads. although most of these cant really be tested, we just see the final result. and at those low pressure loads. are not good.

there has been a marathon disscussion and BP refused to sell any more, these became a huge issue.

 

i stick to gualani wads. possably the best wads made? dunno but they are a contender,

[MAB1954]

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

The discussion about the poorly design wad is a bit beyond me as a beginner. I cannot see any B & P T2 wads on the internet but I have found B & P Z24 wads. So for my first attempt I am thinking the following:

 

Lyalvale English Sporter case [Cheddite]. I have plenty.

Cheddite CX2000 Primer.

Vectan AS powder - 21 grains.

B & P Z24 wad.

Lead shot size 7.5 - 24 grams.

8 point crimp.

 

Use as a light load for clays.

 

Anybody suggest a suitable size powder bushing for 21 grains Vectan AS in a MEC 600 reloader.

 

Are the electronic scales sold for weighing powder/shot any good or is it best to get an older style beam balance?

[deershooter]

Z24 wad will work with 24 grams in a 67 mm case but should be too short for the 70mm case the B&PT2 is longer than the Z 24 by approx 3mm

 

Z24 works with 28 grams of shot in 70 mm case with 21 grains of AS

 

Deershooter

Edited February 20, 2013 by deershooter

[sitsinhedges]

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

The discussion about the poorly design wad is a bit beyond me as a beginner. I cannot see any B & P T2 wads on the internet but I have found B & P Z24 wads. So for my first attempt I am thinking the following:

 

Lyalvale English Sporter case [Cheddite]. I have plenty.

Cheddite CX2000 Primer.

Vectan AS powder - 21 grains.

B & P Z24 wad.

Lead shot size 7.5 - 24 grams.

8 point crimp.

 

Use as a light load for clays.

 

Anybody suggest a suitable size powder bushing for 21 grains Vectan AS in a MEC 600 reloader.

 

Are the electronic scales sold for weighing powder/shot any good or is it best to get an older style beam balance?

 

If you're going to use a Z24 wad either use 28grams of shot (that it is designed for) or use a thick card such as a 20gauge nitro card in the shotcup to pack it out otherwise the crimp will dish because the case isn't full enough. 21grains of AS is fine for this recipe too, it's a standard load. I have used a cheerio to fill out the shot cup of a Z24 wad for 24grams of shot and it's never been a problem.

 

A scale is a must. I use a relatively cheap electronic one but back it up with a cheap Lee beam scale to verify its accuracy.

 

I would also suggest that as your used cases are 6 point crimp you should be recreating that, not an 8 point one.

 

You have to realise that we don't have access to the same data that American powders have but nevertheless we have enough to make good loads safely but I can understand how strange it must seem having read American reloading books and thus having certain expectations that are difficult to fulfill using european components.

 

Once you get going you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Edited February 20, 2013 by sitsinhedges

[sitsinhedges]

There is a recipe for a CX2000, 21.5grains of AS, Guilandi Spark wad, 24 grams of shot in a 70mm case. 1318 fps and 518bar pressure

 

Claygame reloaders sell these wads and the recipe is on their old CD so if you contact them for the wads you can pick their brains about the recipe too.

 

This would seem an ideal starting point for you.

[Floating Chamber]

Aquilla28 is a good wad for 24 gram loads.

[Guest cookoff013]

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

The discussion about the poorly design wad is a bit beyond me as a beginner. I cannot see any B & P T2 wads on the internet but I have found B & P Z24 wads. So for my first attempt I am thinking the following:

 

Lyalvale English Sporter case [Cheddite]. I have plenty.

Cheddite CX2000 Primer.

Vectan AS powder - 21 grains.

B & P Z24 wad.

Lead shot size 7.5 - 24 grams.

8 point crimp.

 

Use as a light load for clays.

 

Anybody suggest a suitable size powder bushing for 21 grains Vectan AS in a MEC 600 reloader.

 

Are the electronic scales sold for weighing powder/shot any good or is it best to get an older style beam balance?

my personal oppinion is that vectan AS is not great for 24g lead loads. it can be used, but its not ideal, it would be like trying to win formula one in a campervan.

there is data to support its use. as i said its my own personal opinion.

as for the suitable bushing size, you need to buy a scale, but i`ll look at home to see what bushing should be good.

 

Z24 wad will work with 24 grams in a 67 mm case but should be too short for the 70mm case the B&PT2 is longer than the Z 24 by approx 3mm

Z24 works with 28 grams of shot in 70 mm case with 21 grains of AS

Deershooter

+1

 

i`ve been messing around with faster powders that use smaller charges. wad length is an issue, thats why 67mm cases or 65mm are a viable option.

 

there are better alternated to AS for sub 24g loads.

[Floating Chamber]

I use only AS24 for 24 gram.

[Guest cookoff013]

ever used any lowsonic?

seems a cool powder.

 

as24 is ideal for 24g loads, if i`m not mistaken its used in lylevales 24g HV line of shells.

[sitsinhedges]

Let's suggest some obscure components that the chap can't get hold of easily, that'll help his passage into the game wont it

 

Or just give him a basic useable recipe of easy to obtain components and let him get on with it

Now let me think

 

For the record I've shot plenty of 24gram AS loads and they work fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them.

[Guest cookoff013]

Let's suggest some obscure components that the chap can't get hold of easily, that'll help his passage into the game wont it

Or just give him a basic useable recipe of easy to obtain components and let him get on with it

Now let me think

For the record I've shot plenty of 24gram AS loads and they work fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them.

 

from that point of view, if just loading it isnt bad idea. but there are better options out there for 24g loads.

even the manufacturers dont recomend it for 24g lead shot. that recipe you posted sounds alright. (spark)

even gualandi hasnt any AS recipes for 24g in 12gauge.

 

clay and game has some. but they are not all ideal.

 

i just dont want the guy dissallutioned that reloading is cheaper, and him spending a fortune on powder or components to get a mediocre or worse shell.

 

for the record also, i`ve fired alot of titewad / 24g fibre loads, and even that powder is far from ideal in that application. and thats way faster! at ~25 grains of TW per charge, that is just un sustainable. at 240 shells per bottle. vecatn AS, is slightly better at 22 grains powder 350 shots per .5kg.