Mr pigeon Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Hi guys, I've been given permission to use a 5acre "permanent pasture" paddock ( what ever that means?!? ) for cover crop by the owner. It has a river running down the long side and evergreens on the other. It is only 200yards from a pen and could form a major drive for our syndicate. The farmer who is part of our syndicate and owns the surrounding land (but not the paddock) was happy putting it over to cover but says we cannot do it now because its permanent pasture. Is this true? Is there a way round it? Can we do anything else? My only thought was the mother of all straw rides?!? Any advice would've very much appreciated, thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Pasture is grass, therefore permanent pasture is grass that is permanent as opposed to a crop of grass that has a finite life. To turn the field into something viable to hold birds it will need to be planted with a crop which will provide cover for the birds, hence the name cover crop. To do this the field will need spraying off and then ploughing to produce a seedbed in which to plant the cover crop. You still have just enough time to do this but whether you can will depend on many factors. Landowners permission, what grant scheme if any the land is in, who will pay for the work/ fertiliser/ seed and what crop you plant. Your first step should be to talk to the owner............but remember, time is of the essence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Yes have owners permission and farmer is doing all other cover crop bits. The bit that confuses me is the farmer is saying you cannot plough up permanent pasture. Is this true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinF Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 I have come across this before on our shoot. I don't really understand it but I think the farm needs to have a certain amount of permanent pasture to qualify for a subsidy. There a bit more explanation here: http://www.rmjones.com/news.php?news=83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 10, 2013 Report Share Posted May 10, 2013 Yes have owners permission and farmer is doing all other cover crop bits. The bit that confuses me is the farmer is saying you cannot plough up permanent pasture. Is this true? It depends entirely on which scheme the farm is signed up to. I guess that if the farmer says he can't then that is so as he would know which scheme he's in. Also remember that if this is the case you will not be able to ruin the grass by things like driving on it when it's wet or spreading straw on it for a ride as heavy penalties would apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 You just might be able to get away with a narrow strip of cover crop along one side, say 5% of the total area? "Current CAP reform proposals will stipulate that farmers must retain the area of permanent pasture and other unimproved land at the level indicated on their 2014 SPS form – within a tolerance of 5%." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Good info guy thanks. Not sure if it was clear though, the paddock is NOT the farmers it belongs to the house next to it. The farmer owns the surrounding land and plants our cover crops. Does legislation apply if its not the farmers land and in his scheme? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 It depends entirely on if the owner has the field registered for SFP or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Sorry if its a dumb question but what is SFP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Sorry, should have said. Single Farm Payment, it's the subsidy/grant farmers get. ie the payment and rules depend on which level of the scheme they are signed up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 So if the chap who owns the paddock is not signed up to a scheme it's ok to turn it into cover crop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 11, 2013 Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 So if the chap who owns the paddock is not signed up to a scheme it's ok to turn it into cover crop? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2013 Thanks alot cheers Thanks alot cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Hi guys, I've been given permission to use a 5acre "permanent pasture" paddock ( what ever that means?!? ) for cover crop by the owner. It has a river running down the long side and evergreens on the other. It is only 200yards from a pen and could form a major drive for our syndicate. The farmer who is part of our syndicate and owns the surrounding land (but not the paddock) was happy putting it over to cover but says we cannot do it now because its permanent pasture. Is this true? Is there a way round it? Can we do anything else? My only thought was the mother of all straw rides?!? Any advice would've very much appreciated, thanks in advance. you say the farmer does not own it, does he rent it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 14, 2013 Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 So if the chap who owns the paddock is not signed up to a scheme it's ok to turn it into cover crop? by the sheer fact they say he can't plough it up suggests though that he is in a scheme. The land we have our syndicate on has some grass down for Hay and I Know they have to plough it up occasionally to stop it being classed as permanent pasture. In your case it may not be the end of the world pheasants love long grassland if you just leave it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2013 Hi guys the farmer does not rent it no. He was not happy to leave it in case it got full of brambles.? He is now looking into it more deeply, about the scheme.?? What do you guys do to entice birds to stay in a certain area, ie straw rides (dimensions) tips tricks? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferretboy111 Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 Bit confused but from the sounds of it if the farmer doesn't own it or rent it you can't do anything with it surely? But saying you do have permission to use it and it's permanent pasture- I'd grass harrow it heavily, fertilise it heavily, broadcast abit of chicory or Cananry grass onto it where the harrows have flicked up some soil and leave it to grow without topping/grazing it. Cheers Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Before you do anything you need to speak with the owner and if you are permitted to use it draw up an agreement with the owner as to what you may and may not do with the land. It's no good talking about planting cover on his land and thereby ruining the pasture without his agreement. You also need to find out if you will have to reinstate the pasture when you relinquish the land. The only way to keep birds on a parcel of land is cover crop and food. Also I should ask, is this parcel of land the right place to hold your birds. As it's by a river I presume it's low ground and therefore would not be the best place to drive/flush birds from. Surely a better place for a game crop would be higher up so that you could stand your guns in the low area by the river and flush the birds from higher ground over them. Edited May 15, 2013 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 15, 2013 Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 I would agree with the above u need to speak to the owner and find out exactly wot is allowed. If u have to reinstate which i would imagine u will sowing to grass can be expensive if done properly as ground should be worked more than a 1 pass machine. I would also say 5 acres is a Big area for a cover crop, dunno size off shoot or numbers off birds, is it also defo in a place u want birds to be and not pulling them out off a decent drive. Possibly u could just plant 1 area along a hedge somewhere that should show the best birds. Or plant whole area to arable and farmer can harvest it but leave some standing crop or turnips which could be strip grazed as season goes on to suit u. if farmer gettin some revinyue off it will make it cheaper I would be wary off broadcasting reed canary it can grow very very thick when established, atleast it does on bare soil and birds either won't go in or won't fly and end up pegged. U could try that with an Optco type air? seeder/tine harrow but block some off the seeder pipes, they advise showning at around 2"-3" rows now to give birds space. Would be hard to reinstate if u planted on top off sward, still need sprayed and ploughed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr pigeon Posted May 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2013 (edited) Brilliant info guys thank you very much. We have permission and are allowed to use for cover crop. All the bits you guys mention have now been sorted and agreed. It will now be one of our main drives and yes it isn't the best at producing high high birds but its the best we got! One question I would like to ask is the field is in the shape on an 8. River running along the long side and a thick hedge with tall trees on the other long side. We are planning to push it from top to bottom if you get my drift, long side on left and right as we push it. I wondered if there was any dead set or better way to put crop in, we don't have to use it all, as much or little as we like. A long thin strip? One half or the other? The whole lot? Open to ideas as we are all new to this. Cheers Edited May 15, 2013 by Mr pigeon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted May 16, 2013 Report Share Posted May 16, 2013 I haven't got a clue? Like a lot of things to get decent advice u really need to see the ground. Would be better if any of u know a local keeper/other shoot captain/exp shot to give u a bit off advise that can see the ground Dunno how the new cover crop relates to ur release pen, prevailing wind, slopes, valleys etc. Prob in an ideal world the hedge would run up a hill from ur pen to a higher point at the top. So u could plant a strip alongside the hedge to create a corridor to feed the birds up into the crop and a bigger flushing crop at the top hopefully the highest part so u could push the birds back towards the pen. even better if the high trees are inbetween crop and pen as birds would have to climb over them to fly home Don't know wot others think and will depend on the numbers of birds but one 5 acre crop is a fair size area (depending on shape) and could take a lot of beating/beaters/good dogs to get birds out and over the guns, possibly if u only planted parts or put it all down to cerals/turnips the farmer could harvest/graze some parts leaving others standing to suit. Partridge and pheas love turnip fields can be quite good sport working the dogs walking them up and shooting them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferretboy111 Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Well you can't put crop in if it's permanent pasture- only what I suggested you could do. Reed Cananry grass broadcast onto permanent pasture will never get too thick as only a handful of plants will germinate due to competition. You should top the bottom half of the 8 shape to stand the guns on and drive the top half. 5 acres isn't a big bit of cover- the bigger the better, especially if you have permission to use it. Covers are only small due to tight farmers! sounds an ideal position for holding pheasants with thick hedges, thick grass and a river! Recipe for success every single time! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted May 17, 2013 Report Share Posted May 17, 2013 Well you can't put crop in if it's permanent pasture- only what I suggested you could do. Why not, all he's got to do is run a plough through it, work up a seed bed then till some kale and roll it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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