Question: Section 1, 5 Shot Shotgun

[Mungler]

I am going to take the plunge and make an FAC application for a 5 shot semi auto shotty (and for use of solid slugs ammo). I have had a chat with my FAO (nice chap) and the procedure seems okay, the emphasis being on showing good cause - they will want to see a booking form for a wild boar shoot and they want confirmation from the farmer that he will let me shoot a 5 shot semi on his land for vermin control (not with solid slugs) - both of which I have in hand.

 

I am not up on my FAC rules (and leaving aside the solid slug ammo which would only ever be used abroad) is it the case that as a section 1 firearm I could only ever shoot the shotty on land specifically cleared for it? Obviously the only difference between the semi auto shotties I currently have and a section 1 semi auto would be the extra two shells that could be fired.

 

If it is the case that the section 1 shotty could only be used on specific land, then how does someone like Bidwell get to use his gun all over the country for shooting displays? Is there a means of getting some sort of open clearance for the section 1 shotty if only certain ammo is used i.e. can shoot on any land provided not using above (or rather below) 35g of No 5 shot (for example).

 

Cheer ears.

[plexer]

Bidwell has specific special clearance for using the guns he does use and they are only ever used for displays.

 

Ben

[arjimlad]

I think it is normal to have a condition allowing you to use normal loads (i.e. not solid slug and whatever the usual gen is about how many pellets/maximum size) as per a SGC shotty, for practice on clays etc, on almost an open basis. You will only be allowed to use solid slug where the land has been cleared for it though. I expect that JB has an open certificate for his guns as said.

 

There is a need for a DEFRA licence to use a shotgun which holds more than 2 in the magazine upon avian pests, though. This is set out in the general licence under which we all shoot, and you should check that out as well.

 

Best of luck.

[palombier]

I think it is normal to have a condition allowing you to use normal loads (i.e. not solid slug and whatever the usual gen is about how many pellets/maximum size) as per a SGC shotty, for practice on clays etc, on almost an open basis. You will only be allowed to use solid slug where the land has been cleared for it though. I expect that JB has an open certificate for his guns as said.

 

There is a need for a DEFRA licence to use a shotgun which holds more than 2 in the magazine upon avian pests, though. This is set out in the general licence under which we all shoot, and you should check that out as well.

 

Best of luck.

 

Arjimlad

 

I thought the Defra licence allowed s1 shotguns but not s.5 shotguns?

 

P

[plexer]

5 shot shotgun not section 5 shotgun which would be a prohbited weapon.

 

Ben

[palombier]

5 shot shotgun not section 5 shotgun which would be a prohbited weapon.

 

Ben

Ben

This a direct lift from the General Licence am I misreading it?

 

“semi-automatic weapon†means any weapon which is not prohibited by section 5 of the Firearms Act

1968 as amended and which has a magazine capable of holding more than two rounds of ammunition,

where the depression of the trigger ejects a single shot, each subsequent shot requiring a further

depression of the trigger;

 

 

Regards

 

P

[plexer]

What is a Section 1 shotgun?

 

A Section 1 shotgun differs from a conventional shotgun, by virtue of the fact that it has a magazine capable of holding more than two cartridges. These are known as "pump-action" or "semi-automatic" shotguns, where cartridges from the magazine are loaded by hand "pumping" the action, or by the discharge of the previous round. These weapons are required to be held on a firearm certificate.

 

I think you are getting your licences mixed up a normal shotgun held on a shotgun certificate is just that. A shotgun held as a section 1 firearm is held on a firearms certificate.

 

A section 5 weapon can only be held by someone with the section 5 firearms certificate which is not normally going to be joe bloggs.

 

Ben

[browningstalker10g]

if you apply for the variation of large capacity shotgun on the grounds of pest control aslong as u have proof u need it you shouldnt have to much problem, that rabbit cathcer ed thingy who rights in a shooting mag i forget witch one has a full capacity semi auto small gauge shotgun for use as pest control! if he cfan get one as a pest controller so should anyone else that does lots of proven work as a controler

 

 

also i have a Saiga-12K "Tactika-3" witch has a detachable magazine witch hold 8 shots, has a flash supressor etc, as i have the variation permiting me to have a shotgun with full capacity witch is to be used for pest controll as sometimes 3 shots isnt enought when ambushing hordes of unsuspecting bunnies, after all they wouldnt sell these things in the uk if it was imposiable to get them, it all comes down to wether u have a genuine need for them, in this country u cant have pretty guns on a mere whim!

[mry716]

If you show good reason you may have a multishot ( ie more than 2+1) semi auto shotgun for Pest Control. The conditions attached will usually be in accordance with other conditions on your FAC. Mine just says Pest Control with no other restrictions to usage, but there again so do my 22Cf's.

[browningstalker10g]

rifles have to be used on cleared land due to saftey and ballistics, as shotguns are totaly different they do not impose restrictions on land, once you have proven the need for a high capacity shotgun you can buy asmany as you like and use them on land you have permision on to shoot, i dont know though if clay clubs would let u use on on there premisis and i belive its agaist the law to use one on flying pests! as mine is only for rabbits and foxes

[palombier]

Ben

 

This was the original argument:-

 

'There is a need for a DEFRA licence to use a shotgun which holds more than 2 in the magazine upon avian pests, though. This is set out in the general licence under which we all shoot, and you should check that out as well'.

 

I am aware that you need a Home Office authority to possess S. 5 weapons but i believe you are missing the point i.e. That you do not need a separate Defra licence to use a S.1 shotgun under the General Licence.

 

P

[dunganick]

basically from what i am reading it sounds like the shotugn will adopt what ever conditions your lisence has on it. As a first time applicant this will either be named land only or cleared land only. However im not sure how land can be unsuitable for a shotgun. So you may well find it is effectively on an open certificate.

 

I quite fancy a 5 shot for pest control, and as it sounds like it would ge the conditions of my open ticket it might not be a waste of time.

 

You can also get the slugs on your ticket for humaine dispatch i believe.

[browningstalker10g]

5 shot u can go all the way you know and get 8 shots!

[theshootist]

rifles have to be used on cleared land due to saftey and ballistics, as shotguns are totaly different they do not impose restrictions on land, once you have proven the need for a high capacity shotgun you can buy asmany as you like and use them on land you have permision on to shoot, i dont know though if clay clubs would let u use on on there premisis and i belive its agaist the law to use one on flying pests! as mine is only for rabbits and foxes

 

 

Thought I should respond to this as not being able to use a multishot on some birds like crows and pigeons does not make good sense - having looked at the met police website it seems clear that you can use a sect 1 shotgun (i.e. greater than 2+1 capacity) on certain species under a biannual exemption from the WCA 1981 (I should stress that this website seems to have been set up in 2000 so may not be up to date). Hope this helps:

 

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/deer1.htm

 

"Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and comply accordingly. Particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5 (I.E. SECT 5 OF THE WCA), which makes it an offence to use an automatic (??) or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semiautomatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semiautomatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

 

Any landowner giving permission to anyone who does not hold the appropriate DEFRA licence to use a Section 1 shotgun or any rifle with a magazine capacity of more than two rounds for such activities, will also commit an offence under Section 5.

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

On conviction, a court can order the forfeiture of anything used to commit the offence, including firearms or even vehicles (Section 21 WCA).

 

Whilst there is little dispute that birds such as wild geese and Canada geese are destructive and a nuisance to farmers, etc., they are not legally classified as vermin by either the RSPB or DEFRA. In fact all birds are protected.

 

Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns. The following thirteen species are at the moment included in this exemption:

 

Canada Goose

Crow

Collared Dove

Great Black-backed Gull

Lesser Black-backed Gull

Herring Gull

Jackdaw

Jay

Magpie

Feral Pigeon

Rook

Wood Pigeon"

[mry716]

Thanks for the input from 'The shootist' but I feel the Met site is both slightly dated and somewhat inaccurate.

 

Rather than start a debate on the validity of Police sites just let me say that so long as you are 'au fait' with the various laws regulating the use of multishot shotguns (and rifles) then you personally are unlikely to need any additional licence to shoot Pigeons or Corvids for instance.

 

The best approach would be to consult your shooting organisation in respect of your particular needs.

[Mungler]

Thanks for the input from 'The shootist' but I feel the Met site is both slightly dated and somewhat inaccurate.

 

Rather than start a debate on the validity of Police sites just let me say that so long as you are 'au fait' with the various laws regulating the use of multishot shotguns (and rifles) then you personally are unlikely to need any additional licence to shoot Pigeons or Corvids for instance.

 

The best approach would be to consult your shooting organisation in respect of your particular needs.

 

 

I agree. The earlier post and extract from the Met seems bizarre:

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

How on earth could anyone prove an "intention" to shoot wild birds for example if you went out with a bag of pigeon / crow decoys or just said "no I am not" then that's the end of it.

 

I would only ever use a s.1 shotty to blat rats, squirrels, crows (corvids) and pigeon [i.e. vermin]. Without getting into an enormous debate can we agree that I would be okay to do this.

 

Obviously a S1 shotty is not a "sporting" weapon and accordingly, taking game / wild birds with one would be most unethical indeed (as well as illegal - which is understandable).

[theshootist]

Thanks for the input from 'The shootist' but I feel the Met site is both slightly dated and somewhat inaccurate.

 

Rather than start a debate on the validity of Police sites just let me say that so long as you are 'au fait' with the various laws regulating the use of multishot shotguns (and rifles) then you personally are unlikely to need any additional licence to shoot Pigeons or Corvids for instance.

 

The best approach would be to consult your shooting organisation in respect of your particular needs.

 

 

I agree. The earlier post and extract from the Met seems bizarre:

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

How on earth could anyone prove an "intention" to shoot wild birds for example if you went out with a bag of pigeon / crow decoys or just said "no I am not" then that's the end of it.

 

I would only ever use a s.1 shotty to blat rats, squirrels, crows (corvids) and pigeon [i.e. vermin]. Without getting into an enormous debate can we agree that I would be okay to do this.

 

Obviously a S1 shotty is not a "sporting" weapon and accordingly, taking game / wild birds with one would be most unethical indeed (as well as illegal - which is understandable).

 

 

Sorry if I have confused things, not my intention - I just wanted to clear up by ref to the relevant legislation that you can shoot birds classed as vermin with a sect 1, nothing more. The reference to "intention" would only be relevant where it could be proven that you intended to shoot a wild bird not classed as vermin by Defra. Enough... I'll get back in my box now.

 

Cheers

[arjimlad]

Thanks for clarifying that, Shootist.

 

I knew there was provision somewhere about s1 shotguns.

[Guest jonrms]

sorry just noticed the thread.. after being back.. from a busy decorating spree

 

 

i have one.. and i stated that i needed it for rooks, crows pigeons.. etc.. where 3 shot total was not enough... for a fast shooting....

 

hence how i got mine.

[Mungler]

sorry just noticed the thread.. after being back.. from a busy decorating spree

 

 

i have one.. and i stated that i needed it for rooks, crows pigeons.. etc.. where 3 shot total was not enough... for a fast shooting....

 

hence how i got mine.

 

 

Cheers for that Jon.

[il cacciatore]

This is all very interesting stuff but I have a few questions that dont appear to be answered.

 

A. Does the FAC have on it "5 shot Semi automatic shotgun" or is it worded in some way leaving the number of shots out as not all are 5 shot?

 

B. Does it state the action type? Pump/semi? Though I'm guessing that this would vary from region to region as my .22 allowance has Semi automatic down. My FLO agreed that action doesnt make a blind bit of difference to anything and really should be left blank cause a .22 is a .22 no matter what action it is.

[Mungler]

Further to the questions raised by il cacciatore I would add -

 

Can I apply for a 7 shot semi auto shotty? and

What is the difference (in license terms) between a 5 and a 7 shot?

[mry716]

You apply for a multi shot shotgun and can have whatever you then choose SPAS 10 shot, Hatsan 8shot, etc etc.

 

The conditions on your FAC will be in accordance with your requirements as to all intents and purposes it is classed the same as a rifle.

eg mine says the following

 

 

Re the wildlife aspect BASC offer the following...........

 

The 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act at section 5 makes it illegal to shoot wild birds with a semi-automatic weapon which is capable of holding more than 2 rounds in the magazine. However section 16 allows the secretary of state to make licences which overrule the Act and he uses this every year to issue the general licences. These licences make it legal to use semi-autos with a magazine capacity over 2 rounds for the species listed on the licences. Reference to the relevant general licences should be made for a complete list but it includes pigeons, crows and some gulls. The licences also vary slightly from country to country.

 

The 1981 WCA does not cover game and the Game Laws make no restriction on the type of weapon used. Therefore you can use a semi-auto with more than 2 rounds in magazine for shooting game.

 

In practice the only bird which we cannot shoot with a semi-auto which can have more than 2 rounds in the magazine is waterfowl.

 

MAMMALS

 

The 1981 WCA lists the mammals that cannot be killed using a semi-auto which can have more than 2 rounds in the magazine. None listed are quarry for the sporting shooter i.e. rabbit, fox etc. Therefore in effect there is no restriction on their use for mammals in a sporting context.

 

If we can be of further assistance do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Regards

 

IAN DANBY

 

Biodiversity Officer

 

BASC

 

Marford Mill

 

Rossett

 

Wrexham

 

LL12 0HL

 

01244 573024 Conservation and Land Management

 

01244 573013 Fax

 

email: ian.danby@basc.org.uk

 

Web: www.basc.org.uk

[il cacciatore]

This raises the serious question then to why everyone does not indeed have one!

[Guest jonrms]

it doesnt say on mine...

it is listed as SG

 

I can have a semi auto.... pump etc..

 

at the moment i have a winchester 5 shot pump but thats because I wanted it.

 

 

just put down on the application...

SG section 1

 

for reasons of x y z