MBW Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 A mate of mine was put in a similar situation by Lothian and borders police. He had put on Fac application 22 rim fire 17hmr and a 243, he had held a sgc for eight years before applying for fac and he was told to pick either 22 or 17hmr he was not getting both and flat refused 243 until he had more experience, so we kept a diary or every outing he had with me and my 308 and detailed every shot fired then a year later sent the diary and variation form to police and was granted his 243 without question. It's a bit of a pest we just did it to see if they would question it, no mention to him of dsc1 and yet he is employed as a pest controller on a large veg farm where deer rabbits etc are all fair game for him I have been quizzed about dsc1 once for a renewal after having my cert for five years - but I have it so no problem, then when the wife got her license renewed a month later no mention of dsc1 to her and they also didn't have it on record we shared guns! I'm guessing they also struggle to find their own ***** with both hands and a map in that firearms office Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 If no licencing authority is going to issue a rimfire for fox why not ? if its legal according to you classed as vermin. Exact words from my licencing authority "We issue you your fac and set the conditions NOT BASC" Would you gamble your fac on that, I wouldn't and that's partly why Im no longer a member of BASC as my force doesn't acknowledge anything BASC says so for me it wasn't worth renewing my cover. ok so they add vermin and then say if you ask that doesn't include foxes. If you check the dictionary definition of vermin that most definitely does include foxes, and we are meant to interpret them making up their own definition. If they had to argue that in court can you see how badly that is going to go for them? I've had vermin on all my rifles I've had fox I've even now got deer and pest control over all my rifles. Thats HMR included obviously I wouldn't shoot a deer with it as that would be illegal but no such law covers foxes whatever your FEO is making up. If they conditioned you vermin not including foxes then fair enough but they don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 my force doesn't acknowledge anything BASC says so for me it wasn't worth renewing my cover. Fair enough. But given your location, I don't think your force can exactly claim to be "on top" of their licensing given fairly recent history. Maybe they should actually listen to BASC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deaquire Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 A mate of mine was put in a similar situation by Lothian and borders police. He had put on Fac application 22 rim fire 17hmr and a 243, he had held a sgc for eight years before applying for fac and he was told to pick either 22 or 17hmr he was not getting both and flat refused 243 until he had more experience, so we kept a diary or every outing he had with me and my 308 and detailed every shot fired then a year later sent the diary and variation form to police and was granted his 243 without question. It's a bit of a pest we just did it to see if they would question it, no mention to him of dsc1 and yet he is employed as a pest controller on a large veg farm where deer rabbits etc are all fair game for him I have been quizzed about dsc1 once for a renewal after having my cert for five years - but I have it so no problem, then when the wife got her license renewed a month later no mention of dsc1 to her and they also didn't have it on record we shared guns! I'm guessing they also struggle to find their own ***** with both hands and a map in that firearms office I enquired about a .243, they suggested I get permission to more land before they would grant it but that would be the only thing stopping me. Since more land won't be an issue, i suppose I could apply for one tomorrow but I don't actually want a bigger rifle until I feel I'm ready for it, it would be stupid and un safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 ok so they add vermin and then say if you ask that doesn't include foxes. If you check the dictionary definition of vermin that most definitely does include foxes, and we are meant to interpret them making up their own definition. If they had to argue that in court can you see how badly that is going to go for them? I've had vermin on all my rifles I've had fox I've even now got deer and pest control over all my rifles. Thats HMR included obviously I wouldn't shoot a deer with it as that would be illegal but no such law covers foxes whatever your FEO is making up. If they conditioned you vermin not including foxes then fair enough but they don't That's all well and good Al4x but my force specifically state that fox are not classed as vermin with them. From the dictionary wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease, e.g. rodents: killed as vermin or game, the pumas have gone parasitic worms or insects: his clothes are infested with vermin people perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society:the vermin who ransacked her house That description describes almost any wild animal. Fair enough. But given your location, I don't think your force can exactly claim to be "on top" of their licensing given fairly recent history. Maybe they should actually listen to BASC? Plenty forces done plenty things wrong. What you don't hear is all the good things they have done like my fac application 9 days total, sgc 13 days total never had a variation take more than 10 days I could go on and on, Not all forces are perfect after all they are ran by humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 That's all well and good Al4x but my force specifically state that fox are not classed as vermin with them. From the dictionary Where do they specifically state? on your FAC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) Where do they specifically state? on your FAC? It doesn't say it on my fac just on headed paper and on there official site stating that Durham do not class fox as vermin. It doesn't bother me as I have a hornet and a 243 just more of an observation on my part. Edited August 2, 2013 by Luckyshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Interesting thats the only force i've heard of actually put it in writing and even then they only say "Generally" they don't class them as vermin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Interesting thats the only force i've heard of actually put it in writing and even then they only say "Generally" they don't class them as vermin Yea it does say generally and some people in my area may have fox for rimfire but I don't know anyone personally that does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Cheshire's view of vermin was confirmed to me when I asked if fox was vermin " Cheshire do not prosecute for breaches of firearm conditions" . Obviously enough, this cannot be right because if it were, I could, in theory, go out shooting deer with a .243 legally, without a mentor, rather slightly different to shooting a fox with a .22. A single licencing authority without police involvement would help conditioning no end and since the RSPCA can access the police database why not a civilian contractor ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Take a step back & look at it this way if you were a FLO would you give a first time applicant with no experience a .243 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I wasn't allowed an hmr when I first applied and only got a .22lr. That said, a year down the line, with evidence of good usage, I've got a .22lr, .17hmr, .223 and an open certificate. For me it was worth playing their game as I quickly got what I wanted in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belly47 Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 I had my fac interview on Monday and been approved for fac air, 22rimfire and .17 hmr. the local feo seems to be on the side of the shooter and not the powers that be. when we was chatting about suitability of land for particular calibres he said its all a load of nonsense, as he could say that its not suitable for me to shoot on then a guy with an open ticket can come along and shoot on it, his approach is that its the shooter that needs to be safe and not the land. I also asked him about centrefires on first application and he said he sees no reason why you cant but the powers that be would not grant it. also mentioned the upcoming .17 WSM with its 400ft/lb 3000 fps and what impact that will have but he did not know much about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 No disrespect but I think people make an application then have to scramble for a good reason to posses the calibre. A proper paper work trail added to your FAC application will add far more weight in your favour. Playing catch up is not the way to go…. A well worded letter from a land owner stating you have permission to manage the deer and fox population is far better than trying to argue some one has seen a muntjac! To give you an example a mate put in for a .243, attached a permission letter from the farm and the FAD rang the farm manager about the letter, he confirmed there are Reds and Muntjac on the ground and my mate was granted his fac with deer and fox on it. They gave him a mentoring condition as was expected, I took him out with me and advised him to get the 2 other farms in the clearing process which took a little while. When they were cleared he put in my covering letter and the condition was removed so he is free to shoot 3 farms on his own. TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Essex Hunter Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 You beat me to it !! That is not the Firearms Act but a quote from ACPO guidance which is not law. It was good enough to shut some one up for a while....... TEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 It was good enough to shut some one up for a while....... TEH Thanks, I just spat coffee out of my nose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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