-Mongrel- Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 First things first. This is a hypothetical question brought on by a discussion I've had earlier tonight with a friend. I am under the impression that you cannot let a non-SGC holder use one of your guns while shooting with you on your permission. My friend reckons that because you have permission to shoot the land it is classified as 'your land' and as such you can legally loan a shotgun to a non SGC holder as long as you are in attendance. I've done a Google and looked at the BASC site and can't find any clarification...how much the Tanglefoot has to do with that may be relevant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/CD411880-8D54-42F7-988CB24C93AC5132 I think your friend may be right. Edited August 2, 2013 by aris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 You really do want to see the popcorn tin opened. You are correct, someone who merely has permission to shoot on someone elses land is not an occupier and therefore can not lend his shotgun to "his mate" to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 (edited) The BASC guidance seems to imply otherwise, though it does seem to be a grey area. It says the 'occupier' is anyone with shooting/hunting rights on the land. Edited August 2, 2013 by aris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karpman Posted August 2, 2013 Report Share Posted August 2, 2013 Reads to me that you can only lend a gun to a non cert holder if he/she is under the age of 18. Karpman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Read it again :-) 15-18 you can only be lent a shotgun under 11(5) circumstances by someone 18 or older. Under 15, must be supervised by 21 or older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 this has been kicked to death many times, just phone basc, im under avon somerset and my flo said best not to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 You really do want to see the popcorn tin opened. You are correct, someone who merely has permission to shoot on someone elses land is not an occupier and therefore can not lend his shotgun to "his mate" to use. Correct! webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 The BASC guidance seems to imply otherwise, though it does seem to be a grey area. It says the 'occupier' is anyone with shooting/hunting rights on the land. An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law. Merely having permission to shoot from the person (occupier) who has such an interest does not confer that interest to the person who has been given permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law. Merely having permission to shoot from the person (occupier) who has such an interest does not confer that interest to the person who has been given permission. It would be interesting to hear why BASC say. If you have written permission to hunt on the land, could this not be seen as a contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerSim Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 The BASC guidance seems to imply otherwise, though it does seem to be a grey area. It says the 'occupier' is anyone with shooting/hunting rights on the land. I think you are confusing "shooting rights" with "shooting permission" - they are a world apart. To quote CharlieT:- An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law. ( my emphasis ) Please don't think I am being patronising, but look up the difference between "rights" and "permissions". IMHO, it will help explain the issues better than I could in a short forum post - plus it may help put the difficulties of the law into context.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerSim Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 It would be interesting to hear why BASC say. If you have written permission to hunt on the land, could this not be seen as a contract? IMO, No, as where is the consideration? I.E. If I give you permission to shoot, what do I get in return? If we change the example to a paid stalk, or paid for clay shooting lessons, then IMO, there is consideration, and therefore presumably this is a contract, which is why such things are treated differently under the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I did some googling on shooting rights - very interesting indeed. I think the BASC document could be clearer in this respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Going back to my statement "An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law". A simple test to decide if you are an occupier or not...... An occupier is subject to the Occupiers Liability Act and all the legal ramifications that entails, such as being sued for breaches of duty of care. Someone with "permission to shoot pests" would not, in law, be classed as an occupier as they have no duty owed to others visiting the land, in fact they themselves are owed that duty by the occupier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I emailed basc about this matter last month and they refused to give me an answer in writing saying I should phone and get advice because it depends on the persons circumstances and area , which sounds like a get out clause to me , surely the law is the law and BASC should know it back to front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerSim Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I did some googling on shooting rights - very interesting indeed. I think the BASC document could be clearer in this respect. I am glad you did! I find it fascinating, if a little peculiar. But then most of this countries laws are so old, that even the meaning of the words has sometimes changed. Going back to my statement "An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law". A simple test to decide if you are an occupier or not...... An occupier is subject to the Occupiers Liability Act and all the legal ramifications that entails, such as being sued for breaches of duty of care. Someone with "permission to shoot pests" would not, in law, be classed as an occupier as they have no duty owed to others visiting the land, in fact they themselves are owed that duty by the occupier. As usual, CharlieT talks sense. --- For anyone who is interested, look up "profit a pendre", viz:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit-a-pendre We looked at buying some more land a bit ago, and found this term in the land cert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister22 Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 as far as I can tell it is a grey area that has not been tested in court Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Thanks or the heads up on shooting/sporting rights. If I ever buy land in the future - I will be sure to make a point of checking this! It begs the question - if you go on a paid shoot (not clays) and don't have a SGC, do you have to be in the physical presence of the legal occupier? Or can the occupier confer the occupier rights by contract to someone else? The laws surrounding this seem quite confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 You would have to be in the presence of the occupier. However, as you will have gathered, there can be more than one occupier for a given piece of land. As an example, the owner, a tenant or the owner or a person leasing the shooting rights would all be occupiers. On most shoots where let days are sold, the person letting the days would be the occupier. Small DIY shoots where there is no formal lease or arrangement with the owner/occupier, it is unlikely that they would qualify as an occupier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OvEr_KiLL Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 what i was told by my fire arms officer was. you are allowed to lend your mate a shotgun if you are with him and you have in writing by the land owner that you have permission to shoot there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 what i was told by my fire arms officer was. you are allowed to lend your mate a shotgun if you are with him and you have in writing by the land owner that you have permission to shoot there Ask if you can get that in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted August 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 So are we basically saying probably not legal, but we're not sure, therefore time to call the FEO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 Going back to my statement "An occupier is someone who has an interest in the land that is enforceable in law". Not necassarily. The owner of land which is let to a tenant is a person who has a legal 'interest' in the land but is NOT an occupier, the tenant is. Whether someone is an occupier rests on what level of control they have over the land, not merely whether they have some legal interest in it. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 I emailed basc about this matter last month and they refused to give me an answer in writing saying I should phone and get advice because it depends on the persons circumstances and area , which sounds like a get out clause to me , surely the law is the law and BASC should know it back to front? I can see where they are coming from because it will depend on the very specific circumstances of each particular case as to whether the person shooting will be an occupier or not. The determination of whether a person is an occupier depends on the level of control they exercise over the land. An outright owner may not be an occupier if he has given someone else the exclusive right to use the land, such as when a landlord rents out a house to a tenant. An owner who still uses the land but has given someone else the right to do a specific thing and only that thing may still be an occupier but not in respect of that thing, such as in giving someone else the exclusive right to kill deer or fish, etc. A landowner who contracts with a building firm for the construction of a new factory may be joint occupier with the building firm and the builders may be exclusing occupiers of a particular part. It can all get very complicated so I can see where the difficulty in giving specific advice will arise. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted August 3, 2013 Report Share Posted August 3, 2013 what i was told by my fire arms officer was. you are allowed to lend your mate a shotgun if you are with him and you have in writing by the land owner that you have permission to shoot there And I think that he's wrong there because a mere permission does not make you an occupier. You have no level of control over the land so you cannot be an occupier. Admittedley, it is a ridiculous situation. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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