Underdog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Seems I am not alone! http://extranosalley.com/?p=17267 U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hi sits I'm going on what the author wrote, relating his experience with a box that knocked holes through his back stop at 80 yards! Personally I made tons at Eley but used proper wads. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 I don't buy the shot balling thing, it's out of the barrel far too quickly to heat weld. That said I do buy proper recipes with suitable materials for the job at hand. For the good some bog roll stuffed down the tube would do you might aswell just sit the shot on the powder and be done with it, proper squib load. Thats nuts....no pressure would develope. The wad is our piston just like in an engine. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 What evidence of a fiber wad holding pressure poorly do you have? As stated before many times in fact....I regularly use a rolled ball of newspaper in my muzzleloader and down birds. No I do give a rats dodar about efficiency as long as birds come down and down they do come! The OP is enquiring about loading a .410 cheaply. He never mentioned efficiency! I express a desire to experiment with a paper wad based not an opinion but on actual experience with ALL my muzzleloading smoothbores. Another fine wad in a muzzleloader is just a few thin overshot cards and I have used a stack of overshot cards in shot shells before and guess what IT WORKS. So is there actually anyone here who has tried it and it was rubbish or are some of us just guessing at it? U. My experience of a fibre wad being inefficient in sealing against the gases is based on the difference in speed between one of those with a nitro card and one with a plastic obturator in the nitro cards place. The performance is hugely better and wasting powder by using stupid nonsense like you suggest in place of a tested and safe recipes isn't to be recommended by anyone and certainly wont be cheap along with completely unknown performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hi sits I'm going on what the author wrote, relating his experience with a box that knocked holes through his back stop at 80 yards! Personally I made tons at Eley but used proper wads. lol Nothing to do with paper wads then...yes? Shot balling is usually caused by soft shot or better put too soft shot. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 Seems I am not alone! http://extranosalley.com/?p=17267 U. The link says nothing about using bog roll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 My experience of a fibre wad being inefficient in sealing against the gases is based on the difference in speed between one of those with a nitro card and one with a plastic obturator in the nitro cards place. The performance is hugely better and wasting powder by using stupid nonsense like you suggest in place of a tested and safe recipes isn't to be recommended by anyone and certainly wont be cheap along with completely unknown performance. You assume the inefficient performance is due to gasses escaping! Consideration should be given to how pressure is developed between differing wads and all be it if more fuel is used velocities can be matched although pressure limits may be breeched trying of course. How do you come to a conclusion that gasses do not pass plastic wads? How do your recipies account for chamber and forcing cone differences? Bore/guage diameter differences? How do paper cased cartridges survive the harsh highly pressured enviroment they endure? Why don't paper base wads cause gun to explode? U. The link says nothing about using bog roll Talks about paper, now I do admit to not knowing what you use but mine ("bog roll") defo feels like paper! U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 You assume the inefficient performance is due to gasses escaping! Consideration should be given to how pressure is developed between differing wads and all be it if more fuel is used velocities can be matched although pressure limits may be breeched trying of course. How do you come to a conclusion that gasses do not pass plastic wads? How do your recipies account for chamber and forcing cone differences? Bore/guage diameter differences? How do paper cased cartridges survive the harsh highly pressured enviroment they endure? Why don't paper base wads cause gun to explode? U. Talks about paper, now I do admit to not knowing what you use but mine ("bog roll") defo feels like paper! U. I really can't be bothered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 There's nothing wrong with paper wads if they are made properly. Cut open an Eley Fibre cartridge you will find a waxed paper piston that will give enough resistance for the powder to burn efficiently not a screwed up piece of bog roll that will not withstand the heat from nitro powder. There are a lot of other more suitable materials available for next to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted October 1, 2013 Report Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) People seem to be geting confused about the difference between nitro powder and black powder , Black powder will burn in a cartridge at the same burn rate as it will in a little pile on the ground it does not need to be confined to burn at a speed sufficient to propell a projectile this is why it still retains the class of an explosive . Nitro powder need's to be confined with a good seal to burn at sufficient rate to generate high pressure's and propell a projectile that is why it is classed as a propellant , A cartridge stuffed with bog roll over a nitro powder would be one hell of a farting load with hardly any pressure and with a velocity of it being shot from a catapult. Edited October 1, 2013 by Andy H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 People seem to be geting confused about the difference between nitro powder and black powder , Black powder will burn in a cartridge at the same burn rate as it will in a little pile on the ground it does not need to be confined to burn at a speed sufficient to propell a projectile this is why it still retains the class of an explosive . Nitro powder need's to be confined with a good seal to burn at sufficient rate to generate high pressure's and propell a projectile that is why it is classed as a propellant , A cartridge stuffed with bog roll over a nitro powder would be one hell of a farting load with hardly any pressure and with a velocity of it being shot from a catapult. here we go again...assumption! Any nitro load has to be taylored made around the components. If insufficent pressure is being made drop to a faster powder! Blackpowder generates far more heat in a cartridge than nitro....so how do my newspaper wads survive? You assume nitro is hotter. No it is not. Nitro produces per volume more pressure and is regulated (held back) with additives. There would be no time for the paper to burn. It it self would be compressed into a hard wad from the pressure some of which is pressed to the barrel creating some seal. Pre compression in consistant manner would be needed to encourage the nitro to start well. Any more assumptions anyone? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Under dog your comments are like me saying just because I have played with a few girls lady gardens I am a gynaecologist ! If bog roll was so good the manufacturers would use it and they don't, We are not in Davy Crockett suvival mode we are reloaders and most of us do things properly yor comment about going to a faster powder is dangerous I have just used published loads of a powder which ripped the ends of a .410 Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Under dog your comments are like me saying just because I have played with a few girls lady gardens I am a gynaecologist ! If bog roll was so good the manufacturers would use it and they don't, We are not in Davy Crockett suvival mode we are reloaders and most of us do things properly yor comment about going to a faster powder is dangerous I have just used published loads of a powder which ripped the ends of a .410 Deershooter good points. Lady gardens are far more complicated than reloading however. DS...if you used a publicated load and had a burst then that is evidence that sometimes things go wrong. My expression of a desire to experiment with T paper was lol poopood not based on factual experience but assumptions. Of course no manufacturer is going to use T paper! The op has implied he wishes to reload 410 cheaply...I merely said about ME wanting to experiment. Then I get stupid condisending comments from individuals that imply they are experts in this matter. I give them questions and poof thier gone! .410 has been loaded with black powder. I have used paper wads with black powder. I see no reason why an improvised load with nitro and home made paper wadding can not be developed. That is my unqualified opinion. It is not lore. I am not instructing someone else to be my guinea pig. Its just a thought, chat. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) I am well into muzzle loading!! I was told about using newspaper wads with black powder over 50 years ago and found it effective on top of a card wad. Some muzzle loaders use just a tight fitting stiff card wad over the powder and I found this worked well too. I have also used toilet paper as a 'filler' over the card. In a bit of 1960s newsreel I have from North Carolina, the famous gun inventor, Carbine Williams, (inventor of the floating chamber), describes how he loaded a wooden pistol with newspaper and a piece of buckshot. This barrel was made from a piece of bamboo wrapped with fishing line and fired by a crude hammer hitting a match head; the newsreel also shows him shooting this gun. Edited October 2, 2013 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I am well into muzzle loading!! I was told about using newspaper wads with black powder over 50 years ago and found it effective on top of a card wad. Some muzzle loaders use just a tight fitting stiff card wad over the powder and I found this worked well too. I have also used toilet paper as a 'filler' over the card. In a bit of 1960s newsreel I have from North Carolina, the famous gun inventor, Carbine Williams, (inventor of the floating chamber), describes how he loaded a wooden pistol with newspaper and a piece of buckshot. This barrel was made from a piece of bamboo wrapped with fishing line and fired by a crude hammer hitting a match head; the newsreel also shows him shooting this gun. Don't go giving them ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 I am well into muzzle loading!! I was told about using newspaper wads with black powder over 50 years ago and found it effective on top of a card wad. Some muzzle loaders use just a tight fitting stiff card wad over the powder and I found this worked well too. I have also used toilet paper as a 'filler' over the card. In a bit of 1960s newsreel I have from North Carolina, the famous gun inventor, Carbine Williams, (inventor of the floating chamber), describes how he loaded a wooden pistol with newspaper and a piece of buckshot. This barrel was made from a piece of bamboo wrapped with fishing line and fired by a crude hammer hitting a match head; the newsreel also shows him shooting this gun. At last a voice of experience. Thankyou sir. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 with the recent proof loads i`ve done..... was quite an eye opener. with the powder i am trying i discovered many things. loading with my new powder, loading like for like -plastic gives lower pressures. fibre OVERPRESSURE with the same powder charge ! fibre really does give lower speeds, even at these higher pressures. plastic wads had reduced pressure and were faster. ! i have proof data and shotstrings by a reputable source. (incidently i have alot of loads that failed at proofhouse !) i`m not going to publish the duff data. it isnt going to happen. nitro and blackpowder are 2 different things. also newspaper and toilet roll are 2 completely different things. black powder runs at 2-3000psi for good 4 microseconds. my nitro powder with different loads runs at aprox 600bar for unde 2 microseconds. fibre wads are for shooting, toilet roll is for wiping your A55! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Slightly less condesending comments and valid points....thankyou very much. U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe soapy Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 paper is paper, normally made from wood. might be better handling used newspaper than used bog roll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 paper is paper, normally made from wood. might be better handling used newspaper than used bog roll lol :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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