.223 and 5.56 NATO

[spandit]

I know all about the dangers of using the wrong ammunition (although I understand some guns can shoot both) but am I likely to be able to buy the latter in the UK (or does the fact that my licence will probably say .223 and not 5.56 mean that I wouldn't be able to purchase them anyway?

 

I know that shooting FMJ isn't advised (or allowed?) for vermin so I'd guess any surplus ammunition is unsuitable anyway or do you get expanding 5.56?

[zx10mike]

5.56 is fmj but you would be able to buy it with 223 on ticket but there only for target use as you have allready said.

[Dekers]

On your application write .223/5.56, some regions may actually provide this description as standard, mine is.

 

Whilst expanding ammo is generally considered more effective/humane on quarry there is only specific legislation about using expanding ammo for deer.

 

You can legally use what you like on anything else, although most situations will scream expanding.

 

"FEW" hunting rifles are marked as suitable for .223 and 5.56, actually I don't know any, if someone can show me .223/5.56 stamped on their rifle I would be pleased to see it.

 

Do what you like, but all my rifles get fed the calibre stamped on them!

[rem708]

There is a shed load of articles on the pro’s and cons of the differences between .223 and 5.56. Some writers are adamant you should not fire 5.56 in a weapon chambered for .223

 

In practice the cases for both are absolutely identical and the bullet diameter is also identical. As the bullet is identical in diameter you can purchase either on a FAC (.224 inch). Technically you could also purchase a .222 as again it’s the same calibre.

 

The only difference between the two is the chamber lead i.e. the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the start of the riffling.

Add to this is the two very different methods of measuring chamber pressure. The original CUP and the more modern PSI via electronic sensors. Then to just add another variable the place pressure is measured has been moved from the centre of the case to the mouth!!!

 

A good read is the wiki article. It does not have too much opinion and just outlines the facts (obviously needs verification) – just search “223 verse 5.56”

The pressure spec for both do differ and this is made worse with different standards SAAMI (American institution) and CIP (European spec).

I personally do not worry and will shoot both however I’m very careful with military ammo. There are some around that is specifically for belt fed machine guns and does have absolutely max pressures. If it comes in a typically commercial packaging then is probably OK. Do ask the supplier for background information. I will avoid anything from unknown sources.

So why do I not care too much. I have played around with lead distances in other calibres and whilst it does certainly has an impact on group consistency I have never seen any significant change in visual pressure signs (primer deformity). Bullet seating does affect case volume and hence case pressure.

 

Lastly will it blow up my gun? If your rifle is also chambered in other larger calibres consider this. I have two Remington 700’s one in 223 and the other a much larger calibre but still short action. Both have exactly the same outside dimensions. This means on the 223 there is a LOT more metal to contain the pressure. When a weapon is ‘proofed’ it is not taken to the limit of its physical strength. It just says it is capable of taking the 130% or so above the specification.

 

At the end of the day it’s your choice. I could talk all day about chamber sizes but this is one of those times I think too much effort is being put into why you shouldn’t rather than you can.

 

There is no reason for not using FMJ for hunting but remember it does less damage to the quarry and hence may not kill humanly and it is very likely the projectile will exit the creature with high velocity so your back stop must be much better (certainly higher chance of ricochet)

[spandit]

Thanks for the replies. I'm now a little more confused as have seen some ammunition with .223(5.56x45) written on it - I understand they're not identical from reading up on it but what could/would it do to my rifle (Titan 3, stainless) if over pressure?

 

http://www.ammo-zone.co.uk/(S(0hgqd4pbubwgigjzxpt44si1))/Detialed.aspx?A1=Search~5.56mm%20(.223)~Index~331~Page~0

[Dekers]

Thanks for the replies. I'm now a little more confused as have seen some ammunition with .223(5.56x45) written on it - I understand they're not identical from reading up on it but what could/would it do to my rifle (Titan 3, stainless) if over pressure?

 

http://www.ammo-zone.co.uk/(S(0hgqd4pbubwgigjzxpt44si1))/Detialed.aspx?A1=Search~5.56mm%20(.223)~Index~331~Page~0

 

It could blow up, and you could get run over by a bus, struck by lightning, etc., etc....

 

as I said above.....

 

.....................................

 

Do what you like, but all my rifles get fed the calibre stamped on them!

Edited November 4, 2013 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

For all practical purposes there is no difference. The whole reason as to why .223 rifles are so popular is because people buy them to shoot cheap surplus 5.56 ammo.

 

As others have pointed out, there are tiny technical differences which mean they are different rounds but in 99% of guns each is perfectly safe in the other. When reading that 'warning' from SAMMI it must be read in the light of it coming from an industry body which represents companies which almost exclusively produce expensive .223 ammo and not cheap surplus 5.56 ammo. Also, although the pressures seem different they really aren't. They are measured differently; when measured at the same place using the same system they are the same.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Thanks for the replies. I'm now a little more confused as have seen some ammunition with .223(5.56x45) written on it - I understand they're not identical from reading up on it but what could/would it do to my rifle (Titan 3, stainless) if over pressure?

 

http://www.ammo-zone.co.uk/(S(0hgqd4pbubwgigjzxpt44si1))/Detialed.aspx?A1=Search~5.56mm%20(.223)~Index~331~Page~0

That designation is the ammunition maker saying that they are effectively the same round.

 

J.

[spandit]

If it ever stops raining and I can get to a dealer I might be able to try some different rounds. I've since read up on the Barnaul ones and it seems you get what you pay for

[Dekers]

For all practical purposes there is no difference. The whole reason as to why .223 rifles are so popular is because people buy them to shoot cheap surplus 5.56 ammo.

 

As others have pointed out, there are tiny technical differences which mean they are different rounds but in 99% of guns each is perfectly safe in the other. When reading that 'warning' from SAMMI it must be read in the light of it coming from an industry body which represents companies which almost exclusively produce expensive .223 ammo and not cheap surplus 5.56 ammo. Also, although the pressures seem different they really aren't. They are measured differently; when measured at the same place using the same system they are the same.

 

J.

 

.223 is not your everyday competition calibre, and even if it was people would not be flocking to buy cheap 5.56 Surplus to use, especially RG as it is rubbish!

Perhaps you would enlighten all of us who buy a .223 for field work where we can buy the 5.56 Surplus Expanding ammo?

Edited November 4, 2013 by Dekers

[spandit]

I mainly wanted some cheap ammo to break my barrel in as spitting expensive rounds down range seems a bit wasteful. I'm sure there are many differing views on breaking in a barrel and I'd be happy to hear them...

[Dekers]

I mainly wanted some cheap ammo to break my barrel in as spitting expensive rounds down range seems a bit wasteful. I'm sure there are many differing views on breaking in a barrel and I'd be happy to hear them...

 

Check the web...PRVI can still be had for about £40 per 100 in .223, who knows, you may even like it, many do!

 

http://www.peterlawman.co.uk/ammunition

[JonathanL]

 

.223 is not your everyday competition calibre, and even if it was people would not be flocking to buy cheap 5.56 Surplus to use, especially RG as it is rubbish!

Perhaps you would enlighten all of us who buy a .223 for field work where we can buy the 5.56 Surplus Expanding ammo?

 

I was talking globally. The main reason as to why every maker of centre-fire rifles on the planet (ok, there will be one or two exceptions, I'm sure) makes ones in .223 is because there is lots of cheap surplus ammo about and has been for decades. Same reason why .308 is popular - you can use military 7.62 in them.

 

.223 is a popular competition chambering in lots of places; it's why they make very fast twist barrels and heavy target bullets for them.

 

J.

[spandit]

Check the web...PRVI can still be had for about £40 per 100 in .223, who knows, you may even like it, many do!

 

http://www.peterlawman.co.uk/ammunition

I was planning on getting some bit my local guy doesn't stock it. Apparently there's an RFD in Brighton who may

[Dekers]

 

I was talking globally. The main reason as to why every maker of centre-fire rifles on the planet (ok, there will be one or two exceptions, I'm sure) makes ones in .223 is because there is lots of cheap surplus ammo about and has been for decades. Same reason why .308 is popular - you can use military 7.62 in them.

 

.223 is a popular competition chambering in lots of places; it's why they make very fast twist barrels and heavy target bullets for them.

 

J.

 

 

I rather think you will find 7.62 calibre, often military or military based rifles are popular for 7.62 surplus, because there are plenty available and they were designed as military tools to use military 7.62 ammo, and as it happens RG 7.62 is excellent in the great scheme of things. People rarely buy .308 to specifically use 7.62, either for target/competition and certainly not field applications!

 

Perhaps you should visit a range competition and ask how many are using 5.56 in their .223 and 7.62 in their .308, (or indeed vice versa) or perhaps visit your fox controllers and check their ammo, how about your local deer stalk and check out how much Mil Spec is used in either calibre for deer ...so that's one market completely dead!!

 

I am not suggesting for one minute people do not feed 5.56 into their .223 or 7.62 into their .308, what I am contesting is your comments that .223 and .308 are so popular because of surplus ammo available for them!

 

There is only a small crossover in the UK, who gives a fig what may happen in the rest of the world!

Edited November 5, 2013 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

 

 

I rather think you will find 7.62 calibre, often military or military based rifles are popular for 7.62 surplus, because there are plenty available and they were designed as military tools to use military 7.62 ammo, and as it happens RG 7.62 is excellent in the great scheme of things. People rarely buy .308 to specifically use 7.62, either for target/competition and certainly not field applications!

 

Perhaps you should visit a range competition and ask how many are using 5.56 in their .223 and 7.62 in their .308, (or indeed vice versa) or perhaps visit your fox controllers and check their ammo, how about your local deer stalk and check out how much Mil Spec is used in either calibre for deer ...so that's one market completely dead!!

 

I am not suggesting for one minute people do not feed 5.56 into their .223 or 7.62 into their .308, what I am contesting is your comments that .223 and .308 are so popular because of surplus ammo available for them!

 

There is only a small crossover in the UK, who gives a fig what may happen in the rest of the world!

 

Because that is the whole point man! The discussion is about one being dangerous in the other. The two chamberings which are probably the most popular centre-fire rifle rounds on the planet just happen to have essentially identical military versions. Do you really think that happend simply by chance? Of course it didn't, people buy .308's and .223's to shoot surplus military through.

 

I know plenty of people who use 7.62 in .308 marked rifles. It is very common, even in competition. A chap who's Steyr SSG I now own (marked .308) used it successfully in competition and he shot nothing but surplus 7.62 through it. I have just sold an Armalon PR to a chap along with a boat-load of 7.62 ammo.

 

There are loads and loads of people who have rifles marked .308 who bought them to shoot, and do shoot, 7.62 ammo and it has always been thus. Same with .223. There are very few 5.56 marked rifles in circulation in the UK, most are marked ,223. Where does all the cheap 5.56mm surplus go then? It must be being used somewhere. Similarly, all the 7.62 surplus which dealers sell isn't only being used in military rifles because in the great scheme of things there aren't that many compared to .308's.

 

There is no problem in shooting military ammo in commercially marked guns. I've asked previously; show me a rifle which has been damaged solely due to the efects of military ammo being used in a commercially marked rifle (or vice-versa) and I'll reconsider my views. I'm not aware of it ever happening though.

 

J.

Edited November 5, 2013 by JonathanL

[mowdy]

I know of a few people who buy 5.56 fmj ammo pull the bullets and fit expanding bullets and use the ammo as is in there .223

The term "Mexican reloads" is the American name for this.

[Dekers]

 

Because that is the whole point man! The discussion is about one being dangerous in the other.

No its not, its about you saying "The whole reason as to why .223 rifles are so popular is because people buy them to shoot cheap surplus 5.56 ammo", and then repeating the same for .308.

The two chamberings which are probably the most popular centre-fire rifle rounds on the planet just happen to have essentially identical military versions. Do you really think that happend simply by chance? Of course it didn't, people buy .308's and .223's to shoot surplus military through.

 

I know plenty of people who use 7.62 in .308 marked rifles. It is very common, even in competition. A chap who's Steyr SSG I now own (marked .308) used it successfully in competition and he shot nothing but surplus 7.62 through it. I have just sold an Armalon PR to a chap along with a boat-load of 7.62 ammo.

 

There are loads and loads of people who have rifles marked .308 who bought them to shoot, and do shoot, 7.62 ammo and it has always been thus. Same with .223. There are very few 5.56 marked rifles in circulation in the UK, most are marked ,223. Where does all the cheap 5.56mm surplus go then? It must be being used somewhere. Similarly, all the 7.62 surplus which dealers sell isn't only being used in military rifles because in the great scheme of things there aren't that many compared to .308's.

 

There is no problem in shooting military ammo in commercially marked guns. I've asked previously; show me a rifle which has been damaged solely due to the efects of military ammo being used in a commercially marked rifle (or vice-versa) and I'll reconsider my views. I'm not aware of it ever happening though.

 

J.

 

It may have escaped your attention that both 5.56 and 7.62 surplus are not exactly easy to find at the moment, and the availability of 7.62 will continue to decline, yet both .223 and .308 rifles still sell steadily!.

 

Perhaps you need to take a reality check on the overall usage of surplus in the calibres, a trip to Bisley would obviously be an eye opener for you, and I notice you have avoided the issue of field work altogether!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Dekers

[JonathanL]

 

It may have escaped your attention that both 5.56 and 7.62 surplus are not exactly easy to find at the moment, and the availability of 7.62 will continue to decline, yet both .223 and .308 rifles still sell steadily!.

 

Perhaps you need to take a reality check on the overall usage of surplus in the calibres, a trip to Bisley would obviously be an eye opener for you, and I notice you have avoided the issue of field work altogether!

 

The point is that they have become popular worldwide due to the availability of surplus ammo. They are the two most common civilian chamberings in the world because of the availability of the ammo. Argue the contrary if you like but that is a fact. Yes, 5.56 surplus isn't common at present but it will become common as muck in a few years when the Americans stop blowing all hell out of the midde east. There is still plenty of readily available, reasonably priced, 7.62 surplus around.

 

The RWS 7.62 ammo that the NRA buys in is essentially re-packaged military stuff.

 

J.

[vampire]

my licence says 5.56/.223 !

[Dekers]

 

The point is that they have become popular worldwide due to the availability of surplus ammo. BS They are the two most common civilian chamberings in the world because of the availability of the ammo. BS Argue the contrary if you like but that is a fact.BS And what is the source of that fact? Yes, 5.56 surplus isn't common at present but it will become common as muck in a few years when the Americans stop blowing all hell out of the midde east. There is still plenty of readily available, reasonably priced, 7.62 surplus around.

 

The RWS 7.62 ammo that the NRA buys in is essentially re-packaged military stuff.

 

J.

 

 

The point is you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

First off, neither is the most common civilian chambering in the world, .22lr is the most popular civilian calibre in the world by a long way.

 

You have once again completely avoided the issue of Field work. Both .223 and .308 are major field calibres throughout the world, and next to nobody given the opportunity will use surplus for this application. As I asked you earlier, where can I buy expanding surplus ammo? In addition, twist rates on these rifles commonly make them unsuitable for Surplus anyway. So, just which part of any field use .223 or .308 has made them world leaders due to surplus?

 

.308 and .223 have not become popular world wide because of Military surplus 5.56 and 7.62 ammo, the USA, as a major world market (and many other countries) have no problem using 5.56 ammo, in 5.56 chamber rifles, (and 7.62 if they want in 7.62 rifles) that is little or nothing to do with the popularity of .223/.308.

 

As regards competition work, feel free to join me any time at Bisley, I am an NRA RCO and I will happily take to down the line of shooters and show you ammo matched to calibre, whatever that may be!

 

Let me also repeat my comment in #15.

I am not suggesting for one minute people do not feed 5.56 into their .223 or 7.62 into their .308, what I am contesting is your comments that .223 and .308 are so popular because of surplus ammo available for them!

 

You and your mates and anyone else as far as I'm concerned, can stick whatever you like down your rifles, that is not the issue here.

 

Any popularity of .308 and .223 in this country, and the world, has next to no bearing on any availability, or not, of 5.56 and 7.62 surplus ammo!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Dekers

[DaveK]

Are you two married?

[Oops Missed Again]

Are you two married?

If not they should be !!

[spandit]

According to RWS:

 

"Please use ammunition only which is fabric loaded and signed with

exact calibre “.223Rem.”. Also the ammunition should be CIP-proofed. Please

ask your gun dealer for correct ammo"

 

I assume they mean factory loaded. Don't know what CIP proofed means...