No5 steel shot

[wymberley]

wymberly, im 65 yrs young n been shooting pigeons for 50 of those with an average of 1500 per yr. ten yrs of shooting steel trap loads 28 grams no 7s and my averages have not changed. No im not an expert im still on the great big learning curve that is shooting and learning the ways of the wily woodie.

 

 

Anderrewluke, I did not say steel game load i said trap load. the 28 gram trap load pellet in steel is the same size as no 6 in lead,

 

Cookoffyou said .Quote Went to bismuth regretted it. Steel shot is so much BETTER performing.

 

So whats wrong with shooting 28 gram steel trap loads at small game birds, teal, pigeon,quail and partridges.

 

You all protest about the likes of me shooting CHEAP cartridges at pigeons but you want me to source them at under £100.00.

 

Tight lines all you Bs hiters

*****y youngsters, all the same!

[andrewluke]

wymberly, im 65 yrs young n been shooting pigeons for 50 of those with an average of 1500 per yr. ten yrs of shooting steel trap loads 28 grams no 7s and my averages have not changed. No im not an expert im still on the great big learning curve that is shooting and learning the ways of the wily woodie.

 

 

Anderrewluke, I did not say steel game load i said trap load. the 28 gram trap load pellet in steel is the same size as no 6 in lead,

 

Cookoffyou said .Quote Went to bismuth regretted it. Steel shot is so much BETTER performing.

 

So whats wrong with shooting 28 gram steel trap loads at small game birds, teal, pigeon,quail and partridges.

 

You all protest about the likes of me shooting CHEAP cartridges at pigeons but you want me to source them at under £100.00.

 

Tight lines all you Bs hiters

 

where did i mention that you said game loads,

 

andrew

[Guest cookoff013]

wymberly, im 65 yrs young n been shooting pigeons for 50 of those with an average of 1500 per yr. ten yrs of shooting steel trap loads 28 grams no 7s and my averages have not changed. No im not an expert im still on the great big learning curve that is shooting and learning the ways of the wily woodie.

 

 

Anderrewluke, I did not say steel game load i said trap load. the 28 gram trap load pellet in steel is the same size as no 6 in lead,

 

Cookoffyou said .Quote Went to bismuth regretted it. Steel shot is so much BETTER performing.

 

So whats wrong with shooting 28 gram steel trap loads at small game birds, teal, pigeon,quail and partridges.

 

You all protest about the likes of me shooting CHEAP cartridges at pigeons but you want me to source them at under £100.00.

 

Tight lines all you Bs hiters

 

28 gram steel 7s are not game loads, they may knock stuff out the sky, it may even kill at short distances... but it isnt suitable for long range stuff.

the steel shells in this country are poor at best.

 

no, i protest you shooting inadequate cartridges, steel 7s are like shooting lead 9s at 10 yards, and at 40yards they are even worse.

[wymberley]

 

28 gram steel 7s are not game loads, they may knock stuff out the sky, it may even kill at short distances... but it isnt suitable for long range stuff.

the steel shells in this country are poor at best.

 

no, i protest you shooting inadequate cartridges, steel 7s are like shooting lead 9s at 10 yards, and at 40yards they are even worse.

It looks as though we've finally got an answer. Just as we're told that No 4 Steel is the same size as No 6 lead (Post #45), apparently a steel trap load is also the same size as a No 6 in lead. Although I can't make any sense of the latter comparison, I think tignme is saying that No 4 steel has the same ENERGY - because they certainly do not have the same size - as a No 6 lead and similarly, although I don't quite understand, so does a steel trap load. So allowing for a typing error, his choice of steel has the same energy as does a No 6 lead pellet. I can see the logic in that. Unfortunately, logic is of no help as as is well known the inferior terminal effect of steel is not fully compensated for by such a small increase in size. Yes, steel shot does work as did zinc which has a similar density, but, and again unfortunately, not at the ranges we would consider 'sporting' (which is what it's all about) for the small sizes under discussion.

 

On an open forum where youngsters and novices will nowadays probably obtain much of their education in whatever non school taught subjects they're looking for information on to:

 

A. Find out that the effective range of a 12 bore is about 50 metres or more and then,

 

B. 'over the page', as it were, find that trap sized steel cartridges are an ideal choice, is not a sporting legacy that I would choose to leave or be associated with.

[kent]

If the experience gained in 40 years as a gamekeeper who will have probably shot some stuff in that time is of no consequence, then how come shooting a few pigeon in about half that time span makes anyone else an expert? On those grounds your post is nonsensical as what follows is tainted by that flawed comparison which is a shame as you could well have a point.

 

Its dangerous territory to talk of time spent in any industry. One always needs to ask is it 1yrs experience forty times over or 40 yrs of continual progressive experience, we should as such keep learning and most importantly listening. One of the best and most respected keepers I know is in his early 20's one of the worst has been at it "sin he wer' a lad" and cant be less than 70

[kent]

 

2-3mm steel. sheet. i`ve also heard that they are now shooting "00" T18 buckshot loads out of shotguns and breaking steel girders. the guys statesside think it may be adequate for armour plated deer.

 

- was in a gunshop yesterday, asked for some steel shells. i quite like chatting to shopkeepers to see what bull they shovel to sell cartridges.... big steel pellets being too bouncy in the barrel is a new one on me.

 

i like having a natter about cartridges and stuff. i also like to ask alot of questions.....

 

 

I am not the only one then, I might love to sit in a comfy chair and listen to the rubbish spoken to new guys from behind the counter- I would just find it too hard to keep my mouth shut . We need to remember most of these guys work 6 days a week and hear a lot of BS coming there way too

[wymberley]

 

Its dangerous territory to talk of time spent in any industry. One always needs to ask is it 1yrs experience forty times over or 40 yrs of continual progressive experience, we should as such keep learning and most importantly listening. One of the best and most respected keepers I know is in his early 20's one of the worst has been at it "sin he wer' a lad" and cant be less than 70

Which just gives strength to the old saying that everyone is eventually promoted to one post beyond their ability.

[tignme]

regardless what i say about the capabilities of my favoured cartridge you Experts will have and i quote . Its my way or no way. as has been said If youve not tried it dont knock it.

 

Get out there n give them a go. im regurally shooting 40 plus yds pigeons with my favoured cartridge. Last monday, 50 pigeons for 96 shells. last tues 37 pigeons for 75 shells,sat past only 11 birds for 14 shells. Im not willy waving i know they work if i do the job. all of these birds were flighting birds so you will know the difficulty in shooting them out to max range.

 

To keep you all up to speed with this old timer , ive shot competitive clays for 25 yrs working my way up to a class n bordering into aa on occasions so heres the willy waving bit I know how to shoot rangey birds.

 

End of. I rest my case.

 

Yall have a nice day.

 

Baz

Edited November 11, 2013 by tignme

[Guest cookoff013]

it is estimated that #7 steel has less than 0.5ftlbs of energy at 40 yards.

that is far from ideal as a shotshell medium. thats calculated form a MV of ~1375fps.

 

at 0.5 ftlbs, that is not good. compared to a lead #6 which is what has been an all time staple of pigeon shell 1.5 /1.6 ftlbs of energy per pellet. you`d need 3 times as much pellets to be as much energy as lead.

 

now it doesnt take 3 times as much steel to take game but. those numbers are quite alarming.

 

if you were only dedicated decoying at real close range, then they are usable.

i proofed and developed a fast 24gram steel #5 shell just for shooting close birds. i got quite fast speeds.

 

40+ yards with steel UK #7s, thats a US steel 8?

[wymberley]

it is estimated that #7 steel has less than 0.5ftlbs of energy at 40 yards.

that is far from ideal as a shotshell medium. thats calculated form a MV of ~1375fps.

 

at 0.5 ftlbs, that is not good. compared to a lead #6 which is what has been an all time staple of pigeon shell 1.5 /1.6 ftlbs of energy per pellet. you`d need 3 times as much pellets to be as much energy as lead.

 

now it doesnt take 3 times as much steel to take game but. those numbers are quite alarming.

 

if you were only dedicated decoying at real close range, then they are usable.

i proofed and developed a fast 24gram steel #5 shell just for shooting close birds. i got quite fast speeds.

 

40+ yards with steel UK #7s, thats a US steel 8?

Really, that's the bottom line. It doesn't matter how many pellets you throw at a bird if the energy of each individual pellet is insufficient to penetrate into the vital areas then all you have is a bird which is - and with apologies to Tesco - freshly pricked.

[kent]

Which just gives strength to the old saying that everyone is eventually promoted to one post beyond their ability.

 

No it gives strength to an intelligent open mind, rather than the "I know I have done this for years" attitude. its only the state of mind that creates the one post too far phenomenon. The day we stop leaning new stuff is the day we start walking backwards in life

[wymberley]

 

No it gives strength to an intelligent open mind, rather than the "I know I have done this for years" attitude. its only the state of mind that creates the one post too far phenomenon. The day we stop leaning new stuff is the day we start walking backwards in life

Absolutely, I was referring to those whose progress in life has culminated in no more than the ability to state the obvious.

[tignme]

Is thereno telling you two 28 gram no 7s in steel kills confidently out to max range (40 yards). the proof is in the big bags of pigeons. as said before (read it and take it in) i shoot on average 28.5 pigeons per week 52 weeks of the year all shot with 28 gram no 7s in STEEL. Thats 1500 pigeons that you two say cannot be shot with my cartridge. Over the ten yrs shooting steel at woodies thats 15,000 birds. If only you two Rodneys lived closer i would gladly take you out to one of my permissions and show you how it works.

 

In fact ive today bought a slab of the same shells in 24 gram loads and have the confidence to use them as well.

 

The size as in american/english or italian does not come into it as there is so very little difference.

 

I have three guns n my self out on thursday all shooting steel of various loads. lets see the result .

[Guest cookoff013]

Really, that's the bottom line. It doesn't matter how many pellets you throw at a bird if the energy of each individual pellet is insufficient to penetrate into the vital areas then all you have is a bird which is - and with apologies to Tesco - freshly pricked.

 

i was more thinking "in your face" decoyed pigeons. i am in no-way condoning 7 steels for 40+yardage.

 

just think if the gentleman, used classic 32g loads he`d probly get a different result.

just to point out that i`ve developed steel loads for shooting pigeons, but i didnot have #7s in mind. i have reloaded 24gram #5s which is really what this main whole post is about, not steel #7s. i bet if you used 28gram #5 steel you`d have more sucess at 40yards.

 

are the birds shot with #7steel dead instantly?

[wymberley]

 

i was more thinking "in your face" decoyed pigeons. i am in no-way condoning 7 steels for 40+yardage.

 

just think if the gentleman, used classic 32g loads he`d probly get a different result.

just to point out that i`ve developed steel loads for shooting pigeons, but i didnot have #7s in mind. i have reloaded 24gram #5s which is really what this main whole post is about, not steel #7s. i bet if you used 28gram #5 steel you`d have more sucess at 40yards.

 

are the birds shot with #7steel dead instantly?

Yep agreed, we "Rodneys" have to stick together!

 

If the gentleman realised that there was a discernible difference between the shot sizes in ballistic terms and was able to confirm that the cartridges of Italian origin that he uses were No 7s and additionally marked in mms, and if this reflected an English size 6 then given a half decent MV an 'in your face' range of 25 yards is viable. Sensibly reducing the load weight for that range reduces the 'peppered/minced' effect.

 

Whereas I'm too old and knadgered to drive from Devon to Ayrshire for a day out, given the specific cartridge description that is under debate, I'm happy to source them and give them a go.

 

Just one final question though and purely out of interest as with your choice performing as you wish there's no need for you to change. Tignme, why steel for pigeon if cost is not as you say a criterion?

[Guest cookoff013]

could be cost if he`s shooting 15000 a year with 90% hit rate. thats where he is saving money.

 

if he`s happy with his shells, why doesnt he save even more money by going to 21grams?

[aris]

 

In fact ive today bought a slab of the same shells in 24 gram loads and have the confidence to use them as well.

 

 

Which shells are you using exactly, and how much do you pay for them?

[Shooting2]

So from reading through this thread I can learn that everyone has there own opinion on what cartridges, shot size, and weight everbody should use. And many a people have voiced there opinion on the matter, I however would say if you have a cartridge that you are confident in using and taking long shots, then why not? And why do other people go against a person using the 'wrong size shot' ? Obviously different guns and chokes would play a part in the performance of a cartridge, and so as I said if you have a cartridge that you can shoot best with, use it. It appears this comes up allot on here and is something people will always have differing views on. Am going to put my hard hat on here and tell you what I use, clay carts for pigeons, 7s in steel for teal, 4s steel for duck and 2s for geese. This is my own personal preference, think what you want. These are the carts that work for me. A

[tignme]

could be cost if he`s shooting 15000 a year with 90% hit rate. thats where he is saving money.

 

if he`s happy with his shells, why doesnt he save even more money by going to 21grams?

 

 

No where in my post have i said 15,000 a year (ten yrs shooting steel at an average of 1500 per yr) eqates to 15000.

 

Where does the 90% come in.

 

21 grams mmmmmm pity my local rfd doesnt do them yet.

 

all my birds are sold at a premimum to falconers.

 

Which shells are you using exactly, and how much do you pay for them?

 

 

Clever Mirage 28 gram no 7s in steel. Trade price so not telling.

[tignme]

 

i was more thinking "in your face" decoyed pigeons. i am in no-way condoning 7 steels for 40+yardage.

 

just think if the gentleman, used classic 32g loads he`d probly get a different result.

just to point out that i`ve developed steel loads for shooting pigeons, but i didnot have #7s in mind. i have reloaded 24gram #5s which is really what this main whole post is about, not steel #7s. i bet if you used 28gram #5 steel you`d have more sucess at 40yards.

 

are the birds shot with #7steel dead instantly?

 

 

How can i get more success using 32 gram loads i already get an average on agood day of 2 for 1.

 

Dead is dead n yes i get runners along with every other pigeon shooter. thats what the dogs are for there are called retrievers.

[andrewluke]

 

 

No where in my post have i said 15,000 a year (ten yrs shooting steel at an average of 1500 per yr) eqates to 15000.

 

Where does the 90% come in.

 

21 grams mmmmmm pity my local rfd doesnt do them yet.

 

all my birds are sold at a premimum to falconers.

 

 

Clever Mirage 28 gram no 7s in steel. Trade price so not telling.

 

 

do you use steel because you sell your pigeons to falconers?,

 

if you could buy lead cartridges for the same price as you pay for steel which would you use??

 

andrew

[Guest cookoff013]

Clever Mirage 28 gram no 7s in steel. Trade price so not telling.

 

now that is interesting, even if you do get trade price you still opt for the shell not desined for what it is supposed to? is it a cost thing? because the price of 1000 steel shells isnt that much to make that difference.??

[tignme]

I use steel for pigeons to gain the premimum price from falconers because lead kills their falcons. also to get better returns for my outlay.

 

I use steel for all my wildfowling as per the law.

 

I use steel for rabbits ,pheasant ,fox in case of a mixup with lead.

 

I use the same 28 gram n0 7 in steel at the clays in cluding rangey targets. I could include a list of my success s but that would be willy waving.

 

 

[aris]

 

now that is interesting, even if you do get trade price you still opt for the shell not desined for what it is supposed to? is it a cost thing? because the price of 1000 steel shells isnt that much to make that difference.??

 

They have an interesting mix of non-toxic shells.

 

http://www.clevervr.com/catalog/no-toxic

 

The clever website says the UK importer is in - Dalry, Ayrshire

 

http://www.continentalshooting.co.uk/home/contact.aspx

 

They don't seem to sell 28g #7's in steel though:

 

http://www.continentalshooting.co.uk/shop/supplies/cartridges.aspx

 

The 3.5" supermagnum steels are not cheap either at a quid a pop.

Edited November 12, 2013 by aris

[tignme]

 

now that is interesting, even if you do get trade price you still opt for the shell not desined for what it is supposed to? is it a cost thing? because the price of 1000 steel shells isnt that much to make that difference.??

 

 

cookie boy if the trap load in steel is no good then the lead equivilent must be ok as loads on here use 28 gram 7.5s to great success. But then lead is better.

 

What i want to know is which part of steel 28 gram shells are killing pigeons out to max 40 yds is it you n wymberly DONT understand.

 

No the cost does not come into it as i pest control on 24 different permissions the most of whom pay the expenses.