old rooster Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Gordon I agree, we don't need any more undesirables in the country as we have enough of our own. Unrestricted immigration is unsustainable and we should look to other countries such as Canada and Australia and learn from their experiences, but recognise that our social, political and economic requirements differ from theirs. My first hand experience of migrant workers in this part of the country is actually very good. As a business we employ around 700 or so people in Fife with around 10% - 15% of those being immigrants to this country. We recruit on the basis of best person for the job and we very often struggle to recruit reliable natives, especially in the 17-24 age bracket. The kids are just not prepared to work in a factory and start at 7am every day. If you pro rate accordingly we have a far higher rate of absenteeism, time keeping, disciplinary proceedings and quality with UK nationals that we do foreign ones. Exactly! so they remain unemployed by choice and a drain on public resources, all very well to say that those who migrate here to do those jobs are paying taxes but the ones you mention are still being subsidised for health, housing etc. while contributing nothing. Nothing to stop them having families as big as they like as the social stigma just doesn't seem to exist or if it does it doesn't bother them. The general standard of living expectation has drastically increased since I were a lad but the will to work to achieve that has withered in certain sectors. We all know that there aren't enough jobs to go round which makes bringing in people to do what few there are even more crazy! I still think we could do with a national survey so that the people could vote freely on key issues that concern them but no government would dare to do that. If we ever get the vote on EU membership that could prove interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 There are a lot of jobs out there, but an awful lot of folk are not prepared to travel or make an effort. I have genuinely had people asking if we can change the working hours of the factory as they have to get up at 5:30am in order to travel into work for a 7am start, no consideration to what that might mean to the guys that start the back shift at 3pm and finish at 11pm who in turn want to finish earlier. How dare I as an employer ask someone to get up early to go to work and be paid !!! If it wasn't for the foreign nationals who are actually prepared to come into work and actually do work we would not be able to reliably maintain a full workforce from the local national population. We had people refuse to walk 2 miles or less to work when there was snowfall, because their car had got stuck getting out of an un-gritted residential street. They still expected to be paid though, after all it wasn't their fault that the snow fell. Sadly this attitude is most prevalent within the 17-24 age group. The product of declining moral responsibility and the last socialist government??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 If the capable ones who refused to work had their benefits stopped they would soon see the upside of working? You are absolutely correct that the last socialist government has a massive responsibility for the decline in responsibility across the board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 If the capable ones who refused to work had their benefits stopped they would soon see the upside of working? You are absolutely correct that the last socialist government has a massive responsibility for the decline in responsibility across the board! we are in complete agreement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) I don't need the media to influence what I see with my own eyes and know from first hand knowledge. Unrestricted immigration does not just bring in those who will enhance the country, it brings in the career criminals, organised crime, organised pickpockets, violent, lawless individuals with no regard for the law. A swift look at the prison population should worry the hand wringing liberals, who think immigration is great. Then again, they won't look and won't be convinced. They are just out of touch with reality. The voice of reason!! None of that existed before immigrants came here! Good observation Or are we just ****** off that they have better criminals, organised crime and pickpockets and violent lawless individuals. 'We are being outdone at our own game guvnor, Its not fair' Edited November 7, 2013 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It doesn't matter how hard working immigrants may be. That is not the issue. They are surplus to requirements. Mass immigration is no solution to anything, it is an entirely gratuitous burden. Britain is grossly over-crowded. The cake will not get any larger by carving it into more slices. There is no room for mass immigration and there is no economic argument for it. It is merely an invidious and corrosive political expedient. If half the passengers on your bus are not paying their fare the answer is not to cram in more to cover the loss until the axles snap under the strain; the answer is to kick the free-loaders in the seat of the pants and make them pay their way or refuse to carry them further. But whenever this self-evident fact is raised there is always a host of fictitious reasons why this cannot be done, as if the laws of economic reality by which the rest of the world lives have somehow been suspended in Britain. We would have an ample workforce if we did not pay so many of them to be idle and if the state did not steal so much from the rest. And we would never face this situation again if the next generation received a properly rigorous education instead of being schooled in cultural defeatism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It doesn't matter how hard working immigrants may be. That is not the issue. They are surplus to requirements. Mass immigration is no solution to anything, it is an entirely gratuitous burden. Britain is grossly over-crowded. The cake will not get any larger by carving it into more slices. There is no room for mass immigration and there is no economic argument for it. It is merely an invidious and corrosive political expedient. If half the passengers on your bus are not paying their fare the answer is not to cram in more to cover the loss until the axles snap under the strain; the answer is to kick the free-loaders in the seat of the pants and make them pay their way or refuse to carry them further. But whenever this self-evident fact is raised there is always a host of fictitious reasons why this cannot be done, as if the laws of economic reality by which the rest of the world lives have somehow been suspended in Britain. We would have an ample workforce if we did not pay so many of them to be idle and if the state did not steal so much from the rest. And we would never face this situation again if the next generation received a properly rigorous education instead of being schooled in cultural defeatism. Oh dear! You are obviously just another of us awful, right wing fascist illiterates who have no right to show concerns over the dreadful decline of our country. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It doesn't matter how hard working immigrants may be. That is not the issue. They are surplus to requirements. Mass immigration is no solution to anything, it is an entirely gratuitous burden. Britain is grossly over-crowded. The cake will not get any larger by carving it into more slices. There is no room for mass immigration and there is no economic argument for it. It is merely an invidious and corrosive political expedient. If half the passengers on your bus are not paying their fare the answer is not to cram in more to cover the loss until the axles snap under the strain; the answer is to kick the free-loaders in the seat of the pants and make them pay their way or refuse to carry them further. But whenever this self-evident fact is raised there is always a host of fictitious reasons why this cannot be done, as if the laws of economic reality by which the rest of the world lives have somehow been suspended in Britain. We would have an ample workforce if we did not pay so many of them to be idle and if the state did not steal so much from the rest. And we would never face this situation again if the next generation received a properly rigorous education instead of being schooled in cultural defeatism. I quite often agree with you views Gimlet, they seem to be well thought out. But let's consider the amount of workshy, nothing to do but breed, steal, rape, attack English people that we could **** off out of England and see if it weighs up to the immigrant population! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 What you are conveniently overlooking in that comment is that we have BOTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 There are a lot of jobs out there, but an awful lot of folk are not prepared to travel or make an effort. I have genuinely had people asking if we can change the working hours of the factory as they have to get up at 5:30am in order to travel into work for a 7am start, no consideration to what that might mean to the guys that start the back shift at 3pm and finish at 11pm who in turn want to finish earlier. How dare I as an employer ask someone to get up early to go to work and be paid !!! If it wasn't for the foreign nationals who are actually prepared to come into work and actually do work we would not be able to reliably maintain a full workforce from the local national population. We had people refuse to walk 2 miles or less to work when there was snowfall, because their car had got stuck getting out of an un-gritted residential street. They still expected to be paid though, after all it wasn't their fault that the snow fell. Sadly this attitude is most prevalent within the 17-24 age group. The product of declining moral responsibility and the last socialist government??? I for one have never had a job that If I did not clock on in the morning I would get paid or if I was ill I did not get paid I obviously must have been doing something wrong as it never accurred to me that I should be paid if I was not there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigger Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Nigel farage is on question time tonight at 10:35 no doubt some points raised here may be discussed this evening may be worth a watch...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratman2 Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 A friend of mine works for a massive egg producing company, they supply Tesco, Asda and next year Sainsburys too. They have a staff of over 100 people, only 3 are English, the rest are east european on minimum wage but it gets better. The company have bought up cheap houses in local towns and rent them to the workers, the conduct of the east europeans is driving local people out and the company snaps up their house for yet more workers for the ongoing expansion of the egg factory. So not only is this unscrupulous company denying local people of work and housing, paying their employee's a pittance of a wage but taking half of it back in rent money. So oh! aye, immigration is good for a few fat cats and greedy ********. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 It is easy to look at the extreme ends of the spectrum and highlight fault, the reality is that a balance of immigration is healthy, it does bring cultural diversity and a different perspective. As with most things too much becomes problematic. I have no doubt in parts of the country we have gone beyond a healthy balance and other parts not. My complaint is that we have substituted welfare for sponsored living, I have no desire to see anybody struggling to eat, keep warm or maintain a roof over their head, but I absolutely don't believe that we should sponsor a lifestyle beyond providing essentials for people, without a contribution from them in return. For those who are unable to work, so those with disabilities or illness that genuinely prevent that, a progressive and moral society should support. For those caught out via circumstance, i.e. redundancies, etc then they deserve support until such time as they can find themselves an alternate job, although this may necessitate relocation or doing something different For those that are not interested in trying to find work or make a meaningful contribution then it is the absolute bare bones essentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I smile when I read about the extreme ends of the spectrum. Some people need to get up to speed on the criminality of a massive number of immigrants. If only they genuinely knew what is going on. Sadly, we all too rarely get the family men - hard-workers with skills who contribute to society. We tend to get the pimps, fraudsters, pickpockets and worse, in large numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I smile when I read about the extreme ends of the spectrum. Some people need to get up to speed on the criminality of a massive number of immigrants. If only they genuinely knew what is going on. Sadly, we all too rarely get the family men - hard-workers with skills who contribute to society. We tend to get the pimps, fraudsters, pickpockets and worse, in large numbers. As with British men!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Gordon, your experience obviously differs from mine. In this area the vast majority of the immigrant population are genuinely decent reasonable people and the vast majority of scumbags are native born and bred. I come to that conclusion from reading notices in the local press about court proceedings and who is getting done for what. It is all too easy to tar an entire sub group of people because of the actions of a few. Out of genuine interest, where do you get your information that massive numbers of immigrants are criminals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 A friend of mine works for a massive egg producing company, they supply Tesco, Asda and next year Sainsburys too. They have a staff of over 100 people, only 3 are English, the rest are east european on minimum wage but it gets better. The company have bought up cheap houses in local towns and rent them to the workers, the conduct of the east europeans is driving local people out and the company snaps up their house for yet more workers for the ongoing expansion of the egg factory. So not only is this unscrupulous company denying local people of work and housing, paying their employee's a pittance of a wage but taking half of it back in rent money. So oh! aye, immigration is good for a few fat cats and greedy ********. So is guilty here ? It's easy to blame the immigrant workers, they stick out, but the boss isn't so visible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 grrclark - sadly I have had to deal with many, many in a professional capacity. As has been pointed out - crime is not restricted to immigrants, but it is the proportion that would shock many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Out of genuine interest, where do you get your information that massive numbers of immigrants are criminals? He has none, each new case appears from his tummy in the morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Gordon, I think I know where you are coming from now. If you have first hand experience of dealing with this at a level that supports your argument then I absolutely listen to what you have to say. From your location I guess you are also dealing with a very large city that tends to amplify everything as people congregate in what are essentially ghettos. The was a uni professor in Edinburgh sacked a few years ago for stating something that was very factual, based around his daily experiences of students in his organisation, but as it was not politically correct, despite being true, he got bagged. I think there is a huge danger in stereotyping and labelling groups of people because of actions by individuals. Not all immigrants are criminals, not all muslims are extremists, not all gun owners are homicidal maniacs, etc, etc. That said, it doesn't mean that we should not have informed debate for fear of upsetting sensitivities either. Edited November 7, 2013 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) 955i - not sure what your cryptic comment means. Perhaps you could enlighten the world using your big brain. :innocent: grrclark - go to Stoke and ask if they believe unfettered immigration is a good thing. Edited November 7, 2013 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) That said, it doesn't mean that we should not have informed debate for fear of upsetting sensitivities either. Neither should we have it based on inaccurate and biased views/information 955i - not sure what your cryptic comment means. Perhaps you could enlighten the world using your big brain. :innocent: My big brain is busy at the moment thinking of far more important things. It will get back to you when it can be bothered. That said, my little brain may get back to you sooner as it is only bothered about things to buy for Xmas and should be done with that soon. I assume a little brain answer will suffice Edited November 7, 2013 by 955i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) 955i - don't tax yourself on my account. I think your brain needs a rest. Something so small shouldn't be overworked and you can only work with what you have. Edited November 7, 2013 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I will try not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Neither should we have it based on inaccurate and biased views/information That's why i said informed debate. I don't mind a more polarised point of view if it is based on substance, but if the frame of reference is very limited then it has to be considered as such. Gordon, I don't think anyone believes unfettered immigration is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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