Norfolk keeper charged

[Alfred]

 

Wether or not u agree with driven pheasant shooting or not the sheer rapid rise in BOP numbers is affecting other bird life and some off our rarer ones too, even some off our rarer BOP's are being eaten by other common ones (buzzards targeting an osprey nest 2 years in a row)

 

 

 

The bloke caught 16 BOP in the first quarter of the year in one spot!

The irony is that clearly these birds are being sustained in unnatural numbers by the game on the estate, ban game shooting and the source of food for all these BOP disappears and we'll see their numbers drop. Even then I'm sure the twitchers and socialists will still manage to blame the decline of the BOP on anyone in a tweed waistcoat.

 

Clearly there is a legal implication and as a responsible sportsman (and conservationist) I'd like to stress that I do not break the law, however if we're debating the subject I see no moral difference between shooting a buzzard and shooting a fox, other than one is protected due to a law brought in 60yrs ago that probably now needs reviewing.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Alfred

[Alfred]

Agree 100% Mongrel. A news report seen by the general public will give them, albeit wrongly, the impression that game shoots encourage the destruction of BOP on an illegal basis - hardly good PR is it?! In my opinion, buzzards do not need to be controlled - an artificially high number of prey will bring an artificially high number of predators. I appreciate that large numbers of protected predators cause problems, but really it's just tough.

 

The 'general public' that would jump to that conclusion already know that game shoots kill other predators anyway.

So they've already made their mind up and its just another excuse.

 

I have to laugh at most of these clowns anyway, as they stand there in their leather shoes and tell me game shooting is wrong.

[-Mongrel-]

 

... if we're debating the subject I see no moral difference between shooting a buzzard and shooting a fox, other than one is protected due to a law brought in 60yrs ago that probably now needs reviewing.

 

Agreed, to be honest, morally there is no difference. If it's causing a real problem and the best solution is population control then it needs controlling....if it's legal to do so.

[Alfred]

Funny how people have certain creatures they don't like to see killed.

I have no particular love for buzzards but I am always unhappy when I hear about stoats being controlled, I don't think I could kill one, they're lovely little things.

[scotslad]

Funny how people have certain creatures they don't like to see killed.

I have no particular love for buzzards but I am always unhappy when I hear about stoats being controlled, I don't think I could kill one, they're lovely little things.

 

Yet 1 of the worst nest predators there is. A lot of the grouse keepers spend more time trapping and tracking stoats than any other animal.

[Cranfield]

If the chap has committed all the offences as stated in the magazine article, he deserves to be prosecuted and punished accordingly.

Much the same as if he had been caught burglarising, drink driving, or any other unlawful activity.

You can criticise a law, but you can't condone breaking it.

 

Do I feel we need to go around apologising for his actions, as a member of the "shooting community" ?

No.

[scotslad]

I quite agree with the above but is it any wonder the genral public believes that this tarnishes all shooting when quite a few folk on here (fellow shooters, althou not game shots) would rubbish game shooting and are always very quick to find any keeper guilty of stuff like this, or any time a dead bop turns up even thou very little facts.

 

I'm not defending the indefendsible but on the little facts i've read and i always take them with a big pinch off salt, i would also like to give the keeper the benefit of doubt, it really is only a few rogue keepers nowadays.

Dunno wot the figures are for eng but the scottish confirmed cases are down to single figures now for a year, while that is still too many considering wot it used to be that is a massive change

[RossEM]

That's right Cranfield, it's not the fault or responsibility of the shooting community - but negative coverage in the media is hard to distance ourselves from, particularly for keepers. Any of us who've had an iota of gamekeeping experience know that BOP can be a massive problem - you do all you can legally do to discourage them from the pens, but going further than that is crossing a line that makes us all look like the opposite of conservationists.

[RossEM]

Right again Scotslad, hopefully the last ones will be rooted out (particularly with the vicarious liability legislation) and in 10 years no one will be undermining the good conservation work that 99% of keepers do

[-Mongrel-]

Right again Scotslad, hopefully the last ones will be rooted out (particularly with the vicarious liability legislation) and in 10 years no one will be undermining the good conservation work that 99% of keepers do

[CharlieT]

 

What is it with game shoots? Not all I appreciate, or come to that the majority, but SOME do seem to think they are above the law. Guns using illegal shot on wildfowl (already pretty much conclusively pinned on the game shoots) and their 'keepers illegally killing BOP. I can't think of another area of shooting causing shooters so many headaches!

 

I'm pleased you have such a high regard for the one sector of our sport that does more for habitat improvement, vermin control, conservation and rural income than the rest put together. You really don't have a clue do you.

All you can do is criticize game shooting and witter on about how, what is a very rare crime causes "so many" headaches. Get a grip on reality and appreciate that game shooting does more for the continuance of shooting than any other form will ever do.

 

Cheap snipes at game shooting is totally uncalled for, one rogue employee is just that, a rogue employee and his misguided acts, whilst regrettable, do not have the disastrous ramifications you so loudly suggest.

[-Mongrel-]

I do appreciate and understand that there is an awful lot of good that comes from game shoots and the way they are run. Certainly from a conservation and habitat point of view. As for vermin control, I shoot the same land that a game shoot is on, the reason we were INVITED on was because the game shoot couldn't be ***** to do any control other than fox. As a result we now do the rest. You might want to take a look at what a lot of the wildfowling clubs are up to from a conservation point of view as well before climbing too high on you horse.

 

It is not in doubt or dispute that game shoots have a lot of benefit, it is also not in doubt that game shoots putting lead shot wildfowl into the food chain made the national press, it is also without doubt that game shoot keepers allegedly killing BOP also invariably makes the national press. From that point of view they are undoing a lot if not more of the good work they do in my opinion.

 

Ask Joe Public in the street what gamekeepers do and I'll bet killing BOP comes up before conservation. Much of that of course is down to the effectiveness of the RSPB.

Edited December 26, 2013 by -Mongrel-

[scotslad]

 

Cheap snipes at game shooting is totally uncalled for, one rogue employee is just that, a rogue employee and his misguided acts, whilst regrettable, do not have the disastrous ramifications you so loudly suggest.

I totally agree with ur post Charlie T althou unfortunately the last part, the way the RSPB and others spin and highlight every single case even suspected case (they still call that HH debacle at sandringham? as a suspected case despite no evidence wot so ever even the time of night suggests it was nonesense)

Mongrel u are right in some senses that the public believe that keepers are the ones killing BOP's but in reality it probably is not the case any more, there is plenty of other people who would have an interest in killing BOP's. When u actually look at a lot of the detail of cases the keeper would be off his head to do wot is alleged.

I was a a wildlife crime talk local to me and they mentioned 4 buzzards poisoned in the same field 2 and then another 2 about 3 weeks later in full view of a road that busses pass along every hour. It's about the only field on the whole estate that can be seen from the road. There is no way the keeper (who i know) would ever do that anyway and definately not in such a visible place. I have no idea who was responsible but it is very easy to point fingers at keepers when they may well have nothing to do with it, infact i'm sure it was a setup by someone else

 

Really our bodies should be far more proactive in educating the public and puting the RSPB etal in there place, and i do think folk are coming round but news stories like that do nothing for our cause

[norfolk dumpling]

I don't know full facts (RSPB probably don't either!!) but strikes me as rather odd that he had so many B of P lying around as evedence - surely you don't unless you are both very stupid and inundated with them??? But then don't let the truth get in the way of a good story heh?

[Alfred]

I didn't realise there was so much bad blood between the various factions of shooting and field sports.

Everyone seems to think they are better than someone.

 

I grew up thinking that shooting, ferreting and various types hunting were all just normal things to do, I never considered one above the other.

Then I moved abroad and the attitude seemed to be the same.

Its only since I came back to the UK that I've experienced certain areas of field sports thinking they're somehow above others.

 

Its typical British behaviour and a great way for the anti's to divide and conquer, a fair few of you didn't stand behind the fox hunters, so that went down the pan. Now the anti's appear to be making progress on stopping game shooting and plenty of fellow field sportsmen are more than happy to throw us under the bus as a sacrifice, next they'll come after clay shooting.

It won't end until they take your catapults off you and make you take up golf.

Unite or fall.

[DaveK]

looks like another rouge keeper

 

Rouge? You gone all gay on us kent. It'd explain a lot. happy new queer.

[DaveK]

I don't know full facts (RSPB probably don't either!!) but strikes me as rather odd that he had so many B of P lying around as evedence - surely you don't unless you are both very stupid and inundated with them??? But then don't let the truth get in the way of a good story heh?

 

Isn't that how some parts of the forum work?

 

hanging's too good for him. Keelhaul him. Bring back the birch. ................................................ then find out if he did it.

[Bleeh]

To be funny I think I know the bloke.

Well, I know him at second hand at any rate, if he is who i think he is, I had a very good friend who used to do work experience with him - and from the stories I was told then, this doesn't surprise me at all.

[RossEM]

We do indeed need to stick together - and root out the fools that damage our sport.

[norfolk dumpling]

I wouldn't say it is quite that bad but there are fewer and fewer real country folk these days who have an understanding of the complexities of the countryside and how all field sports (should) mesh together.

[norfolk dumpling]

Personally I think we now have far fewer true country folk who understand how all facet of country sports mess together. I don't see this as in-fighting, more a lack of understanding of the big picture. The anti world is also very good at picking on one story and distorting it beyond belief. You only have to think back to the 'Royals kill harrier' story that turned out to be not a wildlife crime as was reported but a total and utter lie. I'm quite interested to know the truth of this event but suspect it will be very hard to find.

[scotslad]

I'm with u here ND, would be very intrested to find out the TRUE facts, but probably never will.

 

I will say i do not have any other info and don't know anyone invloved but the only possible way someone has 16 BOP's 'in possesion' is he also does a bit of taxidermy on the side and has some how muddled up some CITES paperwork, or wot ever paperwork u need to store dead BOP's for stuffing. 16 birds is a hell of a lot in 3 months, even this time off year seems very strange, BOP's do/cause very little or minimal damage to most shoots, Just nothing makes sense

 

Also it mention's pesticide offences but almost everyone who owns pesticides and doesn't store them 100% in accordance with the law (locked signed rooms, use by dates etc) would be guility off 'pesticide offences'

 

Like i said have no idea wot has or hasn't happened but too many things do not ring true for it to be entirely as stated. And i think it is harsh to have the keeper hung drawn and quartered on the little info given

 

Bleeh how does ur comment help? U may or may not know him but ur mate might, How long ago did he do his work experience? Things have moved on massively in the last 20 or so years even the last 10

[Bleeh]

Bleeh how does ur comment help? U may or may not know him but ur mate might, How long ago did he do his work experience? Things have moved on massively in the last 20 or so years even the last 10

He's not that old - he'd of been doing work experience 2008/2009.

 

The comment helps because there are bad eggs out there - Be it police, politics or gamekeeping. Just because he's a gamekeeper doesn't mean that he's automatically being unfairly persecuted.

 

Anyway, he's only been charged, not sentenced. He's going to have to go to court, If he hasn't got a cage full of wild buzzards, he didn't have a cupboard full of banned poisons, and didn't own an illegal firearm - he should have a pretty easy time proving that he's innocent.

 

Further to the point can anyone remind me the name of that old banned poison from the 70's? - the one that used to come with the steroids in case you accidentally poisoned yourself. Sounded like it had arsenic in it's name?

Edited December 29, 2013 by Bleeh

[anser2]

Its time the shooting community woke up and saw which the wind of public opinion is blowing. We are greatly out numbered by a host of different countryside users who like to see birds of prey and themore we go out on a limb to demand BoP control the more ground we will lose with the public and the more likely we will see predator control further restricted. How long will it be before fox control to protect game birds no longer seen as an excuse for control? Before anyone doubts this just look at the recent snare restrictions and lookacross the North sea where game rearing has been banned and foxes protected. Far better to keep our heads down and we are more likely to keep the predator controls we have.

 

As for licences to kill hawks , in the area where the events happened three species of buzzard are found. Common buzzards of course , but also rough legged buzzard in winter and honey buzzards in summer. I very much doubt if many ifany keepers could tell the three species apart in shooting conditions. I spend 100s of hours watching buzzards of all three species every year and have been doing so for 30 years and even in good light with a scope still on occasion make mistakes.

 

I am sorry if buzzards make life difficult for some keepers ( yet others do not have any problems with them, just ask yourself why? ) , but the simple fact is that after years of persicution buzzard numbers have started to return to their natural level and the shooting community is going to have to learn to live with raptors and minmise loses by habitat management and husbandry rather than down the barrel of a gun or in the next 50 - 80 years game shooting will be stopped as we know it.

 

Norfolk dumpling I knew the people involved in the harrier incident and If you PM me I will tell you what realy happened and not the cover up for public consumption.

[CharlieT]

Wondered where you were anser2.

 

Still spouting the same blinkered rhetoric I see.