bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Boston Mick, You dont have to show any signs of security if you dont own a gun. And as long as the FEO followed the law when granting a ticket, then they have no reason to worry about any blame. And you can't own a gun without a certificate.so who has the upper hand.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris B123 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) And you can't own a gun without a certificate.so who has the upper hand.atb No, but the law states you can own a gun without a cabinet. So as the ops mate has been told he can have a cert as long as he gets a cabinet, its the FEO that is wrong. The trouble is that it has become the norm to have a cabinet to get a cert,now it seems to have become law. Its like you hear people saying that years ago they used to walk along country lanes carrying shotguns but would not dream of doing it these days, why, the law has not changed it is just perceived to be against the law. Unless we stand up for what is right then all of our rights will be eroded this way. Edited February 25, 2014 by Chris B123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Where do all these arm chair experts crawl out of the wood from on Pigeon Watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 No, but the law states you can own a gun without a cabinet. So as the ops mate has been told he can have a cert as long as he gets a cabinet, its the FEO that is wrong. The trouble is that it has become the norm to have a cabinet to get a cert,now it seems to have become law. Its like you here people saying that years ago they used to walk along country towns carrying shotguns but would not dream of doing it these days, why, the law has not changed it is just perceived to be against the law. Unless we stand up for what is right then all of our rights will be eroded this way. Well all I can say is he won't be strolling the lanes with his shotgun over his arm any time soon.but feel free to do this if you wish.i am sure you would be ignored.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 No quite true you do not have to have a cabinet.but you have to show some security in place NO YOU DON'T! Nothing in any firearms act states that you have to have any security in place to obtain an SGC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) There are a great number of people who over the years have tried shooting and given up after a cry short time but have still put cabinets in and bought/ borrowed guns.they have then sold off the items and probably took a loss.thats life I am afraid.if this guy wants to see if he likes it first before commitment then there is enough grounds around that you can shoot at with a club gun and without a certificate.you do not even have to clean the thing.there is a world of difference between a shooter not bothering to put the gun away after a day out to someone who has to drive say 30 miles to take it back to the owner/hirer only to go back the next morning to get it back for another day out.my brother has his in the loft.it is a sensible thing to at least part board the loft to save you stumbling about on the beams and over the insulation possibly dropping and damaging your gun only to clamber out of the hatch while coming down a set of steps or worse a chair.people who are granted fac/sgc are supposed to be responsible sensible law abiding yet this is clearly not the case as these type of threads show.god help the future of shooting.atbSo you think I was not responsible, not sensible and not law abiding because I had a shotgun licence and no cabinet? Fortunately in the real world GMP firearms licensing department totally disagree with you, hence the letter I posted and the fact I had a certificate issued.A couple of years later they issued my mate with one so he could use my guns again he had no cabinet, so GMP do not see it as a problem. Not everyone wants to shoot at corporate clay grounds with an exemption in place or even clays and luckily for me I live in GMP who have a fantastic and understanding firearms department. Concerns about the quality of security is one thing however if we go off if, buts and maybes about what a shooter may or may not be bothered to do it is on a dangerous road. The extrapolation of your argument is a central armoury to make sure that all guns are locked up at night by an independent body. I know someone who lost their cert due to leaving the gun out of the cabinet and it was stolen so there is no guarantees any shooter will follow the law, with what you are saying because this could happen none of us should be trusted. On my other point whether or not he drops the gun, falls of the ladder, goes through the ceiling it is not a security issue and nothing to do with the FLO. He had his reasons and those reasons did not affect security. If the FLO feels a shooter is at risk of not follow the law due to not being bothered then don't issue them with a cert ever regardless of whether they have a cabinet or where it is placed as they cannot be trusted. If you trust them to issue it then you have to trust they will follow the law. I agree arguing with the FLO is not the best idea for a speedy licence application but HDAV asked a question and the answer to that question is that it is not a problem in Greater Manchester. Edited February 25, 2014 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 NO YOU DON'T! Nothing in any firearms act states that you have to have any security in place to obtain an SGC! as your mate can show no security measures whatsoever.why is it unreasonable for the police not to give him a certificate until something is in place.he is asking for a sgc but tells them he does not want to own a gun.he wants to loan or hire them.so how are they supposed to take him seriously.or believe he has any intension of getting a cabinet.as I said it is right what they are doing.have you phoned the dept for him on his behalf.to put them straight on where they are going wrong.or why does he not phone basc/cpsa to get them to act for him or does he not want to spend any cash on that either,well I like many others fitted a cabinet.got the sgc and am out every week as much as possible shooting and enjoying it very much.how is he doing following his plan.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) as your mate can show no security measures whatsoever.why is it unreasonable for the police not to give him a certificate until something is in place. BECAUSE ITS THE LAW! (getting bored of informing you of this tbh) The law is very very clear on reasons to refuse an SGC application, a lack of a cabinet is not one of them. I have justified why an SGC is required (for a purpose other than storing a shotgun). I have no issue with a cabinet being required before he buys a gun, or with any notion of "security" if he purchases a gun. BUYING GUNS is not the priority of ALL! He shot .22 and full bore targets for years and never owned a gun yet was at the range every week, was club secretary, named on the club FAC so he could go and buy 20,000 rounds of .22 at a time. Then drive them to the armoury and put them away. Never needed a cabinet at home then either.... Some people just aren't bothered about owning guns! Weird in the extreme i know! They are happy to hire one at £5 a time or borrow one, to stay on the right side of the law a certificate is required. It may be unusual, may not be what you expect but it isn't against the guidance, the law or the accepted practise in other areas! Edited February 25, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 We can all argue the toss all day and some say its right some say it's wrong, unfortunately for your friend the only opinion that matters is GODS(his FEO) as one poster dramatically suggested some of us think of them to be like. The way I see it is YOU DO WHAT YOUR FEO TELLS YOU, that's why he's there. For the renagades who ignore there FEO you chance loosing your licence. It's not rocket science is it. Final point from me on this thread. If he wants his licence he needs to get a cabinet, right or wrong, agree or disagree. It real is that simple. He either puts up or shuts up, it's really that SIMPLES Either way I wish him look. ATB 425 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Poon Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Right I'm going to have my tea now, when I get back online I expect another 3 pages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 look back over the threads on this and other forums and you will see loads where people have been waiting months to gain a certificate.they would fit ten cabinets if it got their grant through.yet here is your mate who gets approved and then wants to play silly games and take on authority to what prove a point.well perhaps it would have been better if he had not applied and let the feo use the time on someone who really wanted a sgc.he could always move to gmp as they will give out cert's under all conditions.if he hired a gun for the max of three days and took it back every evening would it not make sense to buy a cabinet as the cost of fuel is going to be more.prove a point by all means but choose one that is worth proving.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 We can all argue the toss all day and some say its right some say it's wrong, unfortunately for your friend the only opinion that matters is GODS(his FEO) as one poster dramatically suggested some of us think of them to be like. The way I see it is YOU DO WHAT YOUR FEO TELLS YOU, that's why he's there. For the renagades who ignore there FEO you chance loosing your licence. It's not rocket science is it. Final point from me on this thread. If he wants his licence he needs to get a cabinet, right or wrong, agree or disagree. It real is that simple. He either puts up or shuts up, it's really that SIMPLES Either way I wish him look. ATB 425 So you will have no problem obliging with anything they decide? OR following anything they say as gospel and the law? http://www.shootinggazette.co.uk/news/539949/BASC_attacks_Durham_Police_over_licensing_demands.html http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/shamed-durham-police-officer-handled-4394982 Just saying..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 We can all argue the toss all day and some say its right some say it's wrong, unfortunately for your friend the only opinion that matters is GODS(his FEO) as one poster dramatically suggested some of us think of them to be like. The way I see it is YOU DO WHAT YOUR FEO TELLS YOU, that's why he's there. For the renagades who ignore there FEO you chance loosing your licence. It's not rocket science is it. Final point from me on this thread. If he wants his licence he needs to get a cabinet, right or wrong, agree or disagree. It real is that simple. He either puts up or shuts up, it's really that SIMPLES Either way I wish him look. ATB 425 +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 So you will have no problem obliging with anything they decide? OR following anything they say as gospel and the law? http://www.shootinggazette.co.uk/news/539949/BASC_attacks_Durham_Police_over_licensing_demands.html http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north-east-news/shamed-durham-police-officer-handled-4394982 Just saying..... the durham thing was illegal I understand yet it was allowed to run for 6 months and basc could not stop it and I fail to see what one corrupt police officer has to do with this.after all there are a lot more people outside of the force telling porky's to get what they want.i have four cabinets fitted and due to the amount of guns I keep the fao advised me to think about an alarm not the law I know. which I had fitted.this was to make him happy and to make me happy in the knowledge that my guns were being protected.it is surprising how little a monitored system costs these days.i think it should be law to have to have one.atb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 HDAV either I'm missing the point here or I just don't get what your saying. The first article says the Durham force wanted to charge people for gp's report, I personally have no problem with that given that a SGC cost £50 for 5 years and another small fee certainly wouldn't put me off applying. And the second article was about a bent copper, shock, horror. I've never heard of a bent copper before(honestly). And as to part about treating what a FEO says as gospel. I fear you have over exaggerated the point to validate your point, I will explain what I meant again but make it more transparent do there's no misinterpretation, if my FEO said jump off a cliff I certainly would not. However if hè said to me 'you have to have a cabinet to get a licence' I would do as he requests. If he said to me don't leave your guns out of the cabinet when not in use, once again I would take his advice. I really enjoy being able to go shooting and fully accept the responsibilities of being a gun owner and take it seriously, unlike some it seems. We're just going round circles, your friend had 3 options, get a cabinet, appeal the decision or not have a licence. You can bang on all day 'it's not law, it's not law' not once have I ever in this thread said it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 the durham thing was illegal I understand yet it was allowed to run for 6 months and basc could not stop it and I fail to see what one corrupt police officer has to do with this.after all there are a lot more people outside of the force telling porky's to get what they want.i have four cabinets fitted and due to the amount of guns I keep the fao advised me to think about an alarm not the law I know. which I had fitted.this was to make him happy and to make me happy in the knowledge that my guns were being protected.it is surprising how little a monitored system costs these days.i think it should be law to have to have one.atb. It was cleverly worded to be voluntary, but read like compulsory but they were still delaying grants and renewals on this basis. not required by law but they deemed it "sensible" so surely you must fully support it's introduction? Alarms are in the guidance along with other additional security measures, not law but perhaps a good idea, doesnt stop forces suggesting there is limit on the number of shotguns you can own, if your force decided on a arbritary limit of say 8 would you be happy and comply after all they are the Gods and we dare not upset the Gods... OR do we stick to the law? Your replys suggest you would make it mandatory to have a cabinet (4 in fact) and monitored alarm, after all you can afford it and don't see why anyone else who wants to have an SGC shouldn't be able to afford it either... I mean come on who can seriously suggest that anyone who can't afford £200 for a large cabinet and £300 + £15 (x60 for the life of the cert £900) a month for an alarm system could even be serious about shooting? I mean its got to be a whim if they aren't prepared to invest upwards £1500 on security for something they don't even OWN! I mean come on get real its not like you could actually enjoy shooting for less than £2k a year anyway anyone without the funds is just a timewaster wasting the FEO's time........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) And as to part about treating what a FEO says as gospel. I fear you have over exaggerated the point to validate your point, I will explain what I meant again but make it more transparent do there's no misinterpretation, if my FEO said jump off a cliff I certainly would not. However if hè said to me 'you have to have a cabinet to get a licence' I would do as he requests. If he said to me don't leave your guns out of the cabinet when not in use, once again I would take his advice. And he would be lying plain and simple what's the difference between him lying to say you need a cabinet and him lying to say the guns are off to the furnace and then selling them? I really enjoy being able to go shooting and fully accept the responsibilities of being a gun owner and take it seriously, unlike some it seems. We're just going round circles, your friend had 3 options, get a cabinet, appeal the decision or not have a licence. You can bang on all day 'it's not law, it's not law' not once have I ever in this thread said it is. GUN OWNER.............. Big difference between being a gun owner and a SGC holder........ Like the ownership of a GUN... Edited February 25, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Well if he's lying make a complaint, you seem to be well up on the legalities of it all so put it in writing and keep us updated on the outcome. If your correct he should be able to get his licence once they realise the FEO's mistake. Otherwise we all stay on the no cabinet roundabout. Edited February 25, 2014 by Browning 425 clay hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 It was cleverly worded to be voluntary, but read like compulsory but they were still delaying grants and renewals on this basis. not required by law but they deemed it "sensible" so surely you must fully support it's introduction? Alarms are in the guidance along with other additional security measures, not law but perhaps a good idea, doesnt stop forces suggesting there is limit on the number of shotguns you can own, if your force decided on a arbritary limit of say 8 would you be happy and comply after all they are the Gods and we dare not upset the Gods... OR do we stick to the law? Your replys suggest you would make it mandatory to have a cabinet (4 in fact) and monitored alarm, after all you can afford it and don't see why anyone else who wants to have an SGC shouldn't be able to afford it either... I mean come on who can seriously suggest that anyone who can't afford £200 for a large cabinet and £300 + £15 (x60 for the life of the cert £900) a month for an alarm system could even be serious about shooting? I mean its got to be a whim if they aren't prepared to invest upwards £1500 on security for something they don't even OWN! I mean come on get real its not like you could actually enjoy shooting for less than £2k a year anyway anyone without the funds is just a timewaster wasting the FEO's time........... have you any factual proof that durham have actively held up applications/grants for not providing the doctors letter.i would say that people are waiting no longer than before the trial.maybe the odd case but that occurs in all forces. at no time has my fao suggested a amount of guns.he advised an alarm which I was in total agreement with because of the value and also the insurance company said they wanted an alarm.its common sense. for your information the system was under £700 fitted the monitored bit is that it phones me to tell me if it detects any intruders so I can get back or call someone to go check.only charge is payg sim card.hardly a fortune. I have one vice and that is shooting I have suggested nothing about how much I spend a year neither have I said anything about what others should .you are now trying to take this to a personal level where you know nothing about me or my financial position. I stand by my point that if he is not going to follow the fao and his conditions then he has wasted time that could have helped someone get the cert they want. if the police were being blatant in breaking the rules for no good reason then fine they should be pulled up.but for asking for a security/safety issue then sorry you are wrong. as you want to take this to a personal level then I will leave you to it.good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildrover77 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 HDAV Just give up, I have never followed a thread that included the protagonists that left me wanting to do anything other than jump of a cliff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 the durham thing was illegal I understand yet it was allowed to run for 6 months and basc could not stop it and I fail to see what one corrupt police officer has to do with this.after all there are a lot more people outside of the force telling porky's to get what they want.i have four cabinets fitted and due to the amount of guns I keep the fao advised me to think about an alarm not the law I know. which I had fitted.this was to make him happy and to make me happy in the knowledge that my guns were being protected.it is surprising how little a monitored system costs these days.i think it should be law to have to have one.atb. :lol: I think it should be law that you stop doing your best to increase the cost of shooting! How about armed guards, perimeter protection, wild dogs in the garden, steel bars and vault doors all round, electronically chipped and Satellite traceable guns, or how about you forget the lot and tell the Police they should store everyones guns. My guns are perfectly safe in the 3 very secure cabinets I have thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 But you have cabinets , don't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browning 425 clay hunter Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 But you have cabinets , don't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxus77 Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 eeeee bring back Jonathan L i say , love these threads keep me entertained Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 HDAV Just give up, I have never followed a thread that included the protagonists that left me wanting to do anything other than jump of a cliff! Well lets see what happens, this afterall a public forum and everyone is entitled to an opinion. The durham trial has been well covered elsewhere on this forum have a read.... Bostonmick how many guns do you have? Your FEO may have missed the latest guidance, or was it the insurance company who were insisting on it? BTW a monitored alarm is not one with a PAYG sim that phones you.... Thats a dialler a monitored alarm is monitored 24/7 by a control centre and in the event of an activation the send the police/fire etc unless you ring in and give them a password (or the distress password if you have been held against your will) or whatever the monitoring company is contracted to do. BT redcare is common system (constant monitoring not just a simple dialler). You were the one suggesting levels of financial commitment not me. I don't believe i brought cost into the equation. eeeee bring back Jonathan L i say , love these threads keep me entertained I would actually like his input on this topic if anyone knows where he is let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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