hoggysreels Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Ive read up a bit about Browning ...lm l right in thinking, Browning was originally an American gun manufacturer. Then bought out by a Belgian company "FN" .. and production was, in the main, carried out in Europe. There however remained a manufacturing division in the "US of a" ..that the Belgian owned Browning company then licensed manufacture to a Japanese company, who make Miroku shotgun "FN Browning licensed version" ... would this impression be correct .. Is Browning a wholely owned European affair these day? ... if not, l would be grateful if someone could fill in the story more accurately ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmicblue Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 Its very complicated I recall, it is really a Belgian company with a host of different brands (many of which are quintessentially American) and manufacturing facilities around that world. In the world of military procurement there is an understandable bias towards a local manufacturer and under the Herstal umbrella the various different brands prosper in their respective regional markets. I did spend some time investigating it a while back when I 1st got into clay shooting and was also working for a defence market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) J M Browning one of if not the most the most prolific gun designers ever, sold most of his designs to others notably Winchester and Colt .These were sold as straight sale of design . With his classic auto he wanted royalties and was tuned down by Winchester ,more fool them and eventually Browning approached FN in Belgium to manufacture as Browning himself only had a small work shop and was not geared up or seemingly interested in mass production itself. As a result FN , Fabrique Nationale Armes de Guerre, also took on the manufacture of the B25 the granddaddy of all OUs . Eventually FN took over the whole Browning operation and the American Browning Arms Corporation is a independent but wholly owned subsidiary of FN . F N themselves are largely owned by the Walloon Government [southern Belgian Regional government ] of which the sporting gun side is only now a small part . K D Kirkland's book series Americas Premier Gunmakers ,Browning , J G Press gives a good but simple history of J M B and his company Edited March 17, 2014 by Gunman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 17, 2014 Report Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) Miroku started copying the B25 and the copies were so good FN sub contracted them to make barrels and actions B27, then whole guns (citori/125 now 525/725) miroku main business is car parts I'm not sure if FN own part of miroku now or not. It's very complex as they now own Winchester and some guns are made in Belgium B25, some Japan (525) and some parts in both (cynergy) the semis are mixed bag as well some made under liscence/contract in Spain some the US, even turkey (SXP Winchester ) Edited March 17, 2014 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 One thing that I find hard to understand about Browning is why they only seem to sell there BPS pump shotgun in the us the same goes for the Ithaca 37 which would seem to be much the same gun only made by another company but only second hand ones would seem to be available in the UK/Europe all very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 As has been said Browning Arms company was a separate company who used licensing manufacturing to different companies, most shotgun manufacturing was done by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium up until the mid 70s although Remington made Auto shotguns for Browning as well. In 1965 Browning began negotiations with Miroku Firearms in Japan and in 1977 Fabrique Nationale of Belgium and Miroku of Japan acquired 90 percent of outstanding browning company stock, I have no idea on the exact split but Miroku are a minority share holder and FN the Majority and in reality the owners. Manufacturing of Citori 325,425,525 ,725 and Cynergy is carried out at Miroku of Japan, the superposed is made at the Browning Custom Shop in Liège Belgium. The rest of the Browning shotgun line up (not subsidiaries) is either Made in Belgium, Made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal or Made in Portugal. The French company GIAT used to own the Herstal Group, who owned Winchester and FN, FN also owned Browning, Herstal is now owned by the regional government of Wallonia. Browning USA and Canada are wholly owned subsidiaries and you cannot buy a new Miroku in the US unless you import yourself, but look on the browning international website and it shows the Mirokus for the rest of the world, no idea why but some sort of deal between Miroku and FN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Interesting you can't buy a miroku in America also I didn't know miroku part owned browing with FN I thought FN owned browning wholly, what about the browning stuff that isn't firearms? I had a browning racquet and I think they also sell fishing gear? Or is this just a branding exercise. Cynergy are classed as made in Belgium but I think on Japanese actions and barrels. Are the B25 barrels made in Japan or Belgium? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Cynergy are classed as made in Belgium but I think on Japanese actions and barrels. Are the B25 barrels made in Japan or Belgium? Haven't heard that before. Everything I've ever read says that all mass produced Browning O/Us are Miroku built and have been since 1973 (ish). Pretty sure B25 barrel sets and all components for the Belgian assembled B125 are from Miroku. The original contract, apparently still in force, barred Miroku from selling their guns under any other name than Browning in the US market. This included existing long standing importers Charles Daly whose thriving business in Miroku built guns was destroyed at a stroke. Daly just about survived and still imports guns - mostly from Turkey. Also, Herstal doesn't own the Winchester brand entirely. They acquired the rights to produce Winchester firearms but the ammunition and accessories business is still Winchester USA, a separate company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) The Cynergy is made in Japan according to the Browning website, it will have to be proofed over in Europe though so probably done in Belgium but the manufacturing is at Japan. https://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=90 The B25 is completely made in the custom shop in Belgium. http://browning.eu/customshop/ “The B25 has been made in its totality in Belgium since 1931” . So no Japanese parts. No idea on the other goods but I remember reading that somewhere they did sell the footwear division and outsourced their archery division so it was no longer manufactured by them but they must have manufactured them at one point. Edited March 18, 2014 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sx3 clay breaker Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Good watch http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TZxKOBmO4aU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted March 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) So Browning is FN owned in total... but has production in other countries, apart from.just the parent nation "Belgium" .. and licencing agreements with Miroku, Japan ... also ... Winchester is FN owned and "GUN" manufacture is Belgian, but not accessories etc ..is that right? Edited March 18, 2014 by hoggysreels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westward Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Over 80 years ago Winchester was acquired by a US company called Olin Corp. The much loved Winchester 101 family and derivatives were built by another Jap company called Kodensha in a partnership arrangement called Olin-Kodensha. Kodensha continued to build and sell guns under the brand name Nikko which, according to legend, had better wood and finishing than the 101s. This was seen as unfair by Olin who pulled the plug on the deal and may have been part of Browning's reasoning to shut Miroku out from the US market. There are many Nikko guns still around, some under different names like 'Classic Doubles' or 'Eagle Arms' but Kodensha ended up going bust and the rights to produce Winchester guns were acquired by FN (Herstal). Olin still owns everything Winchester apart from gun making. They even have a site: http://www.winchester.com/Pages/Home.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted March 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 So Browning and Winchester, both once yankee is no more, ownership wise. Both are owned by the parent European company FN l did on two ocassions fire an FN 7.62 .. in total 50 rounds ... though even that was pointless, seeing as l was in a tank reg, and personel weapon was a SMG 9MM .. anyhow, l digress ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 The Cynergy is made in Japan according to the Browning website, it will have to be proofed over in Europe though so probably done in Belgium but the manufacturing is at Japan. https://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?id=90 The B25 is completely made in the custom shop in Belgium. http://browning.eu/customshop/ “The B25 has been made in its totality in Belgium since 1931” . So no Japanese parts. No idea on the other goods but I remember reading that somewhere they did sell the footwear division and outsourced their archery division so it was no longer manufactured by them but they must have manufactured them at one point. Thanks i did think it might be an EU tax thing as there are varying rate of duty on components to finished items and with some cynergy models not having traditional stocks thought they may have been european assembled/part made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggysreels Posted March 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Browning or Winchester? In "general" ! ... which of the two makes is perceived as the better "superior" make .. not individual gun being better than another, just in general which make is deemed best ...cheers Edited March 18, 2014 by hoggysreels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 Shotguns OU then I think browning, semis not sure rifles not sure recent Winchester shotguns are limited in UK to SX3 and Select really SXP seems to have flopped but its a Turkish pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted March 18, 2014 Report Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) For O/U shotguns it would have to be Browning, if nothing more than the fact the hand made Browning B25 is a very expensive premium grade gun, the Winchester brand doesn't make anything like that. Also Winchester have have only started making O/U shotguns again in recent years. The expensive Brownings were made in Belgium and the mass market Brownings were made in Japan. Because FN is now owned by local government they wanted to fill the gap in production at the Belgium plant and safe guard Belgium jobs by producing cheaper mass market O/U shotguns as well as the expensive hand made ones. With the deal in place with Miroku they had to revive the Winchester brand and produce a new gun rather than a new cheap Browning one. Because they already make the premium grade Brownings in Belgium they don't bother with premium grade Winchesters, so you could have a very expensive Browning O/U but only cheaper end Winchester. Edited March 18, 2014 by timps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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