A little advice regarding powder/bullets please

[jam1e]

Hi folks,

I'm doing some load development with my .223 Rem, using some IMR 8208 XBR and a box of 45 grain soft point Nosler bullets I have left over.

My Lee "Modern Reloading" manual states the min and max loads for the powder, but their is a difference depending on what bullets I'm using.

Now usually I use Hornady V-Max, and use the loads that are for "Frangible" bullets. But I'm not sure where the Noslers fit. The book just states "Jacketed" or "Frangible". Not "Full Jacketed"

So my question is, what box do my soft (lead) nose copper jacketed bullets fall into, "Jacketed" or "Frangible"??

I appreciate, if in doubt to go with the lower of the maximum load and see how it goes, but a definitive answer, (If possible) would be appreciated.

Cheers

Jamie

[Underdog]

I remember when I started loading....it was with the 45grn Noslers!

 

Length and jacket thickness affects pressures and they are quite short...dont sweat. Just cross reference the starting charge weights and go for down the middle if your worried.

Me....I would start a little from the top.

It is very very unlikely you will ever be near what your rifle was proofed at !

 

U.

[jam1e]

I remember when I started loading....it was with the 45grn Noslers!

 

Length and jacket thickness affects pressures and they are quite short...dont sweat. Just cross reference the starting charge weights and go for down the middle if your worried.

Me....I would start a little from the top.

It is very very unlikely you will ever be near what your rifle was proofed at !

 

U.

Cheers U, much appreciated

[wymberley]

Interesting! I would imagine that although everyone understands the literal meaning of, 'frangible', for game we use the term, 'expanding'. My Lee manual is way out of date so is of no help and neither am I as I have got my main load and a standby sorted and will not be changing it again. Consequently, I had to look on t'net for what is now termed, 'frangible bullets' and as hunters I don't thing we'll be using them. Therefore, it may be advantageous to determine the precise meaning of the term within the reference that you found it. Should it be the same as I found on t'net, then 'jacketed would seem to be your answer.

 

Edit: But I'm already stood to be corrected.

Edited April 2, 2014 by wymberley

[nicholiath]

Interesting. I tend to use the term expanding to describe a traditional type soft point bullet that 'mushrooms' and if I refer to a bullet as being frangible I am describing the v max/varmint type bullets that come apart as opposed to expand.

[wymberley]

Interesting. I tend to use the term expanding to describe a traditional type soft point bullet that 'mushrooms' and if I refer to a bullet as being frangible I am describing the v max/varmint type bullets that come apart as opposed to expand.

Perfect sense. Unless I have it completely wrong (again!), the problem would now seem to be that there are two different types of bullet with the same description.

 

Edit: Had a look.There is no mention of that bullet in the current Nosler reloading manual. However, where there is a choice of either BT or SP bullets of the same weight in any calibre, the charge is the same. If I'm right, then I would guess that the jacketed bullet has the higher charge because the frangible bullet could well break up at higher velocities. The frangible (as opposed to BT) bullet would appear to be more common in the USA where most reloading manuals are written. Frangible could well reflect the accuracy of, "two nations divided by a common language".

Edited April 2, 2014 by wymberley

[kent]

Interesting. I tend to use the term expanding to describe a traditional type soft point bullet that 'mushrooms' and if I refer to a bullet as being frangible I am describing the v max/varmint type bullets that come apart as opposed to expand.

 

In basis I think most of us do, hunting bullets have evolved quicker than terminology in some instances. though I will leave it there to prevent further confusion.

 

as regards the charge weight there is no real 100% answer but as long as I was away from the rifling (which you certainly should be with a factory .223) I should find the nearest data for a 50 grain bullet and start just 5% down and go up in 0.2 grains a time looking for signs 1 round each, if all looked good I generally carry on till I do see some sign and then build in a margin of error from that for my top load ( I DO NOT RECOMEND ALL DO THIS THOUGH ESPECIALLY SO FOR RELITIVE NEWCOMMERS). Its quite possible to work up a hot load in the colder months quite safely and then try it on a hot summers day and be well over. Remember the reason we start 10% lower is not all guns cab cope with a particular load even though std pressure might be way less than proof in most guns its not 100%

[Albert 888]

Just checked the 223 one calibre one book data the powder and heads are not listed sorry.

[jam1e]

Thanks for the replies folks. Always good to get some replies from veteran reloaders.

I always like to leave a decent margin for error, and also for the 3 or 4 "hot" days that we get per annum that will increase pressure type issues.

Jamie

[wymberley]

 

In basis I think most of us do, hunting bullets have evolved quicker than terminology in some instances. though I will leave it there to prevent further confusion.

 

as regards the charge weight there is no real 100% answer but as long as I was away from the rifling (which you certainly should be with a factory .223) I should find the nearest data for a 50 grain bullet and start just 5% down and go up in 0.2 grains a time looking for signs 1 round each, if all looked good I generally carry on till I do see some sign and then build in a margin of error from that for my top load ( I DO NOT RECOMEND ALL DO THIS THOUGH ESPECIALLY SO FOR RELITIVE NEWCOMMERS). Its quite possible to work up a hot load in the colder months quite safely and then try it on a hot summers day and be well over. Remember the reason we start 10% lower is not all guns cab cope with a particular load even though std pressure might be way less than proof in most guns its not 100%

What on earth......?

 

Are you in such a hurry to say something, anything,that you didn't bother reading the question?

 

The OP has the bullet (45gr not 50) and the powder but simply needed clarification of a jacketed and a frangible bullet before deciding how much of one to stuff under the other. In a supposed attempt to prevent further confusion, in your haste you've done the exact opposite. To avoid any unnecessary confusion, you had the option of simply keeping quiet.

 

For your clarification, why not take a few minutes and Google 'frangible bullets' and all will be revealed and reflects the need to check on which of the possible two the OP's reference was referring to.

[kent]

What on earth......?

 

Are you in such a hurry to say something, anything,that you didn't bother reading the question?

 

The OP has the bullet (45gr not 50) and the powder but simply needed clarification of a jacketed and a frangible bullet before deciding how much of one to stuff under the other. In a supposed attempt to prevent further confusion, in your haste you've done the exact opposite. To avoid any unnecessary confusion, you had the option of simply keeping quiet.

 

For your clarification, why not take a few minutes and Google 'frangible bullets' and all will be revealed and reflects the need to check on which of the possible two the OP's reference was referring to.

 

Hi folks,

I'm doing some load development with my .223 Rem, using some IMR 8208 XBR and a box of 45 grain soft point Nosler bullets I have left over.

My Lee "Modern Reloading" manual states the min and max loads for the powder, but their is a difference depending on what bullets I'm using.

Now usually I use Hornady V-Max, and use the loads that are for "Frangible" bullets. But I'm not sure where the Noslers fit. The book just states "Jacketed" or "Frangible". Not "Full Jacketed"

So my question is, what box do my soft (lead) nose copper jacketed bullets fall into, "Jacketed" or "Frangible"??

I appreciate, if in doubt to go with the lower of the maximum load and see how it goes, but a definitive answer, (If possible) would be appreciated.

Cheers

Jamie

Well here and yes I did read it my comment relate to 50 grain will create more pressure as a generalisation than a lighter bullet (so no don't just go with the lower 50 grn load Jamie you might step too low). There is no way of knowing the frangibility of a bullet without testing or asking the manufacturer about recommended minimum impact speeds (still their response will be a good educated guess)

If you want to have a pop try harder and add to the debate maybe?. Soft nose jacketed bullets can be frangible for vermin or tougher for larger edible game like deer. How a bullet looks means squat if you want me to put it straight. A sierra Gameking or pro-hunter offers good weight retention for quarry like deer and it is a jacketed soft point design yet I have some Speer jacketed soft points here that are very frangible even at low impact speed, heck a Nosler partition is a jacketed soft point in external looks!

 

You cannot identify a bullet by weight and look or current description only the exact name as bullets are sold and latter discontinued a lot. Find the code look it up if you cant find it exact you must guess and test

Edited April 2, 2014 by kent

[wymberley]

Well here and yes I did read it my comment relate to 50 grain will create more pressure as a generalisation than a lighter bullet (so no don't just go with the lower 50 grn load Jamie you might step too low). There is no way of knowing the frangibility of a bullet without testing or asking the manufacturer about recommended minimum impact speeds (still their response will be a good educated guess)

If you want to have a pop try harder and add to the debate maybe?. Soft nose jacketed bullets can be frangible for vermin or tougher for larger edible game like deer. How a bullet looks means squat if you want me to put it straight. A sierra Gameking or pro-hunter offers good weight retention for quarry like deer and it is a jacketed soft point design yet I have some Speer jacketed soft points here that are very frangible even at low impact speed, heck a Nosler partition is a jacketed soft point in external looks!

 

You cannot identify a bullet by weight and look or current description only the exact name as bullets are sold and latter discontinued a lot. Find the code look it up if you cant find it exact you must guess and test

OK, consider this "a pop". You really are a silly man sometimes. Do I take it that you did not have a look at 'frangible bullets because it doesn't seem so? These are non lead sintered bullets specifically designed for recreational/indoor use and which totally disintegrate on impact to avoid ricochets. I would imagine that driving these too fast would cause in flight break up. Taking a few minutes as suggested to see where the confusion might lay would have prevented more drivel totally divorced from the original question.

[wymberley]

Save your breath wymberley, the mods wont allow disagreement.

silly thing is that had Kent checked he'd have found out that these are now used for hunting but the velocity figures are well down, but still lethally effective, on the velocity of the more conventional bullets. Sight of the DRT website gives their product range. Consequently, as initially suggested, the answer to the OP's question is, indeed, jacketed. However, me being an amateur, The safest bet for the OP would be to get that confirmed before accepting it as a definitive answer to his query.

[kent]

OK, consider this "a pop". You really are a silly man sometimes. Do I take it that you did not have a look at 'frangible bullets because it doesn't seem so? These are non lead sintered bullets specifically designed for recreational/indoor use and which totally disintegrate on impact to avoid ricochets. I would imagine that driving these too fast would cause in flight break up. Taking a few minutes as suggested to see where the confusion might lay would have prevented more drivel totally divorced from the original question.

 

I see no external link in the OP (first post) If I missed something you said so be it I don't always read your posts, the reason being obvious

[wymberley]

I don't always read your posts,

Nor those of anyone else, properly, it would seem. Otherwise you would at least make some attempt to answer the question instead of going off on a diatribe.

 

Once again, I'm out of here.

[Cranfield]

Save your breath wymberley, the mods wont allow disagreement.

 

You are wrong.

"Disagreement" is certainly permitted, as is reasoned debate.

What is not permitted is personal attacks and/or unacceptable language.

[DaveK]

 

You are wrong.

"Disagreement" is certainly permitted, as is reasoned debate.

What is not permitted is personal attacks and/or unacceptable language.

Sometimes getting up close and personal is all a chap will understand though. And sometimes reasoned debate is out of the question because someone HAS to be right (and it's often the same culprit).

 

Just an observation, like.

[Cranfield]

Why put yourself in the wrong, the sort of people you are referring to are hurt more by being ignored.

Perhaps their need is to be the centre of attention , don't give them the satisfaction.

[wymberley]

Shame really. As now Jam1e (who it seems has quite sensibly decided to leg it) has his answer, the thread could have developed into a discussion as to whether or not this sintered/frangible ammo is going to make a safe, effective, non toxic and economic alternative to our existing bullet material of choice as and when (don't think 'should' comes into it) it becomes necessary because I for one cannot see any other reason for its introduction, albeit, as yet, not here.