Other Persons Shotgun stored with me... Question

[Dekers]

Amazing how things develop/wonder, this was answered #2!

[Berettacocker]

That seems very heavy handed have you contacted your shooting association?

. I haven't no, my friend had similar . Both his certs came up for renewal (coterminous), he filled them in FLO visited and said he would need a form filled in by his Doctor and need some info from the professor at St Bart's before they would renew them. What puzzles me is they never tok his guns away, just didn't give him his certs till they got all clear from doctors (couple of months late). I won't rock the boat and wait a while, there shouldn't be a reason why I won't get them back just hope sooner than later. Cheers

[timps]

I always thought that shared cabinet meant that all guns had to go on the certificate of those who had access. However I was corrected by someone who is a solicitor and works in firearms law, now before anyone accuses me of being a barrack room lawyer this is not my opinion and I am not stating it is right or wrong just posting for discussion.

 

The way the act is written the shotguns to which the certificate relates must be stored securely at all times so as to prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, access to the shotguns by unauthorized persons.

 

By virtue of you having a shotgun certificate you are deemed an authorised person so can have access to it and it doesn’t need to be on your certificate, only none certificate holders are classed as unauthorised, (caveat for firearms).

 

Then there is the If you give or sell a shotgun to anyone, (or lend a gun for more than 72 hours) you must enter it on the other person’s certificate and also notify the police force which issued your own certificate within seven days.

 

But if you inform the licensing authority that you intend to store your shotguns at a particular address and cabinet then that is not classed as borrowing or lending the shotgun it is classed as shared storage. Would be different if you both have cabinets and guns in each of those cabinets but for one cabinet with all the guns in it this is how it's legally viewed.

 

With shared storage the guns only need to be one licence and the details of the storage logged with that licensing authority and that they are happy with the security.

 

Now as I said this is not my take on it but someone who works in the legal profession and deals with firearms law and states categorically this is how the act is worded.

 

But as always the advice is worth exactly as much as you have paid for it and it is his view not mine although I agree it makes legal sense.

[HDAV]

Interesting timps so you can store some else's gun but can't borrow it for more than 72 hours...

[timps]

Interesting timps so you can store some else's gun but can't borrow it for more than 72 hours...

 

As long as your cabinet is listed as the designated place of safety with the licensing authority to which the gun is logged with and they are happy with the security.

 

This discussion came about because I had shared access with my dad at his farm and was adamant that all the guns had to be on both licences. I was then corrected with the argument below.

 

If the shotgun is in its approved designated place of safety then it is not being borrowed by anyone, as it is in its designated storage place. If the gun is away from its designated place of safety then it is being borrowed. Every time the gun is replaced in is designated place the clock resets.

 

The only legal requirement then is to prevent access to the shotguns by unauthorised persons.

 

So anyone who is a certificate holder is deemed authorised, you can use his or any shotgun as long as you return the gun back to its place of designated safety before 72 hours. With a shared cabinet that is obviously what happens at the end of the day.

 

The question I was asked was which part of the act would you be in breach of and charged with, I genuinely cannot come up with an answer.

 

Now as I say he could be wrong but I am damned if I can find an issue with his argument and he is in the legal profession so though I would post it up.

Edited May 13, 2014 by timps

[Berettacocker]

The mind boggles!!

 

So the police are now psychiatrists?

 

So are you saying that anyone in Essex who has cancer and guns can expect to have them taken?

 

penelope this is a paragraph from the letter they gave to me. Any physical or mental condition that may affect your ability to possess and use firearms safely should be declared. Thos includes for example,mantle health disorder,epilepsy,stroke,stress related illness,depression,alcoholism,substance use or dependency,heart disease,cancer. This list is not definitive. There you go.

[QuantumX]

What was their advice?

 

OK the summarise my call with BASC..

 

What i told them is that a friend wishes to store his shotgun at my house, what should i do?

 

Their answer was two suggestions:

 

• Preferred Solution: Person wanting to store at my house should put his own cabinet into my property and then store his gun in there WITHOUT me having access. Then the gun is on his SGC ONLY. He should then inform his local police firearms dept accordingly.
• NOT Preferred Solution: Person wanting to store his Gun at my house should transfer the Shotgun to me, removing it from his license, adding it to mine. He would then borrow the gun when it is being used. But downside is that if he looses gun or something then its will be 100% my fault, as the Gun is in my care.

 

NOW my mate had different advice from Avon & Somerset Police who said it should be on BOTH certificates and he put it on mine has "stored/lent". And we both inform our respective licensing departments that of the Gun being on our licenses...

 

This is like a ****ing MINEFIELD!!!! and i'm still none the wiser!

[alexl]

penelope this is a paragraph from the letter they gave to me. Any physical or mental condition that may affect your ability to possess and use firearms safely should be declared. Thos includes for example,mantle health disorder,epilepsy,stroke,stress related illness,depression,alcoholism,substance use or dependency,heart disease,cancer. This list is not definitive. There you go.

 

If you dont mind me asking is there any chance of you suddenly 'passing out' or anything along those lines? Thats the only reasonable excuse I can see them trying if so?

[HDAV]

 

OK the summarise my call with BASC..

 

What i told them is that a friend wishes to store his shotgun at my house, what should i do?

 

Their answer was two suggestions:

 

• Preferred Solution: Person wanting to store at my house should put his own cabinet into my property and then store his gun in there WITHOUT me having access. Then the gun is on his SGC ONLY. He should then inform his local police firearms dept accordingly.
• NOT Preferred Solution: Person wanting to store his Gun at my house should transfer the Shotgun to me, removing it from his license, adding it to mine. He would then borrow the gun when it is being used. But downside is that if he looses gun or something then its will be 100% my fault, as the Gun is in my care.

NOW my mate had different advice from Avon & Somerset Police who said it should be on BOTH certificates and he put it on mine has "stored/lent". And we both inform our respective licensing departments that of the Gun being on our licenses...

 

This is like a ******* MINEFIELD!!!! and i'm still none the wiser!

 

 

 

Sounds incredibly familiar I had a mate apply to Gwent and authorised his cert but would not issue it until he fitted a cabinet they wouldn't grant him a cert based on the fact he could have a gun and no cabinet at home even though he stated he wouldn't on the application..... Bizzare good to know A&S will grant a cert with no cabinet in place as he has moved over the bridge.....

[Berettacocker]

If you dont mind me asking is there any chance of you suddenly 'passing out' or anything along those lines? Thats the only reasonable excuse I can see them trying if so?[/quote. No Alex that what grieves me most,it was a case of guilty till proven innocent. If they checked my medical records before they took the guns and that was the case then fair play. But I'm fine, if not a bit inconvenienced to say the least! Cheers

[bostonmick]

would it not be easier to put it on both certs as shared.

[kingo15]

This is what my and my dad are doing as advised by our feo. Makes perfect sense to me. Just 3 online forms to fill out thou when his licence turns up and gets his gun.

[QuantumX]

Ok what we did..

 

He wrote his gun on my cert as STORED, and then I have submitted (via email) the paperwork to his and my licensing dept. We also explained in the email i was only storing his gun and he would not have access to my gun safe. So just wait to see what they both say now. Basically we did what Avon & Somerset police said to do.

[Dekers]

I always thought that shared cabinet meant that all guns had to go on the certificate of those who had access. However I was corrected by someone who is a solicitor and works in firearms law, now before anyone accuses me of being a barrack room lawyer this is not my opinion and I am not stating it is right or wrong just posting for discussion.

 

The way the act is written the shotguns to which the certificate relates must be stored securely at all times so as to prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, access to the shotguns by unauthorized persons.

 

By virtue of you having a shotgun certificate you are deemed an authorised person so can have access to it and it doesn’t need to be on your certificate, only none certificate holders are classed as unauthorised, (caveat for firearms). Who says so, if I have a FAC and not SGC am I authorised? If I am serving in the military and have access to missiles am I authorised, if not why not, what automatically makes another SGC holder authorised to access my guns longer than 72 hours?

 

Then there is the If you give or sell a shotgun to anyone, (or lend a gun for more than 72 hours) you must enter it on the other person’s certificate and also notify the police force which issued your own certificate within seven days.

 

But if you inform the licensing authority that you intend to store your shotguns at a particular address and cabinet then that is not classed as borrowing or lending the shotgun it is classed as shared storage. Would be different if you both have cabinets and guns in each of those cabinets but for one cabinet with all the guns in it this is how it's legally viewed. Is that Opinion or tested in court?

 

With shared storage the guns only need to be one licence and the details of the storage logged with that licensing authority and that they are happy with the security. But if you don't access them for 72 hours then the other party has had access in all that time, so the counter argument, whichever words you want to use to describe it is, he has access, so what negates the 72 hour rule, why does he not need it on his certificate?

 

Now as I said this is not my take on it but someone who works in the legal profession and deals with firearms law and states categorically this is how the act is worded.

 

But as always the advice is worth exactly as much as you have paid for it and it is his view not mine although I agree it makes legal sense.

 

I can see some logic to this but I have to ask, is this Opinion, or has it been tested in court?

Edited May 14, 2014 by Dekers

[Bobba]

I am in the Avon & Somerset area. For a 3 month period 6 years ago it was necessary to store my shotgun with my farming friend. The then A&S requirement was to note both SGCs as "Stored". From the above posts it seems that this is still their approach. It solves the problem.

[timps]

Dekers I did put similar questions to him and this was roughly my take on his argument.

 

Who says so, if I have a FAC and not SGC am I authorised? If I am serving in the military and have access to missiles am I authorised, if not why not, what automatically makes another SGC holder authorised to access my guns longer than 72 hours?

 

 

The firearms act does list what is considered an unauthorised and authorised person regards shotguns “Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a shot gun without holding a certificate under this Act authorising him to possess shot guns.”

 

So the way the act is worded you have to “prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, access to the shotguns by unauthorised persons.” Seeing as you are a shotgun certificate holder and that authorises you to possess a shotgun you are not breaking this part of the act, if you don’t have a certificate then unless you have an exemption under the act you are considered unauthorised.

 

This part of the act has no time caveat you just have to stop unauthorised persons from gain access seeing as a certificate holder is authorised he/she can have access 24/7 just not keep the gun away from this storage for more than 72 hours as that is borrowing.

 

Is that Opinion or tested in court?

 

 

It was his legal opinion in correcting my stance, whether that was backed up by court precedence or actual case experience or not I cannot say and he is not a personal friend just a friend of a friend I met so I am not in a position to clarify. However I do know of a husband and wife with one cabinet and only their respective guns are listed on their licence not the entire contents of the cabinet so it does happen in the real world.

 

But if you don't access them for 72 hours then the other party has had access in all that time, so the counter argument, whichever words you want to use to describe it is, he has access, so what negates the 72 hour rule, why does he not need it on his certificate?

 

 

Access is not the same as borrowing, they are two different parts of the act and borrowing is the word used for the 72 hour rule in the act so that is the word they have to use in court. Access has only to be denied to someone without a shotgun certificate no mention of a time limit.I can go and get a shotgun from your cabinet to borrow without being charged.

 

If the shotgun is in its approved designated place of safety then it is not being borrowed by anyone, as it is in its designated storage place and being stored. If the gun is away from its designated place of safety then it is being borrowed and the 72 hour rule applies. Every time the gun is replaced in is designated place the clock resets.

 

Like I said I am not being a barrack room lawyer as 1) I am not qualified 2) I was the same opinion as you and my dad’s guns were on my licence and mine on his when we shared a cabinet but lived at different addresses. 3) It is his opinion not mine so not really for me to argue the finer points.

 

But to be fair his argument made sense, what part of the act would I be charged with? As I am authorised to hold a shotgun and whilst it is being stored in its designated place of storage I am not actually borrowing it regardless if that place is in my house or not.

 

Whether he is right or not who knows, but I find it very difficult to poke holes in his argument, but then I am not a solicitor.

Edited May 14, 2014 by timps

[Dekers]

Dekers I did put similar questions to him and this was roughly my take on his argument.

 

 

The firearms act does list what is considered an unauthorised and authorised person regards shotguns “Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a shot gun without holding a certificate under this Act authorising him to possess shot guns.”

 

So the way the act is worded you have to “prevent, so far as reasonably practicable, access to the shotguns by unauthorised persons.” Seeing as you are a shotgun certificate holder and that authorises you to possess a shotgun you are not breaking this part of the act, if you don’t have a certificate then unless you have an exemption under the act you are considered unauthorised.

 

This part of the act has no time caveat you just have to stop unauthorised persons from gain access seeing as a certificate holder is authorised he/she can have access 24/7 just not keep the gun away from this storage for more than 72 hours as that is borrowing.

 

 

It was his legal opinion in correcting my stance, whether that was backed up by court precedence or actual case experience or not I cannot say and he is not a personal friend just a friend of a friend I met so I am not in a position to clarify. However I do know of a husband and wife with one cabinet and only their respective guns are listed on their licence not the entire contents of the cabinet so it does happen in the real world.

 

 

Access is not the same as borrowing, they are two different parts of the act and borrowing is the word used for the 72 hour rule in the act so that is the word they have to use in court. Access has only to be denied to someone without a shotgun certificate no mention of a time limit.I can go and get a shotgun from your cabinet to borrow without being charged.

 

If the shotgun is in its approved designated place of safety then it is not being borrowed by anyone, as it is in its designated storage place and being stored. If the gun is away from its designated place of safety then it is being borrowed and the 72 hour rule applies. Every time the gun is replaced in is designated place the clock resets.

 

Like I said I am not being a barrack room lawyer as 1) I am not qualified 2) I was the same opinion as you and my dad’s guns were on my licence and mine on his when we shared a cabinet but lived at different addresses. 3) It is his opinion not mine so not really for me to argue the finer points.

 

But to be fair his argument made sense, what part of the act would I be charged with? As I am authorised to hold a shotgun and whilst it is being stored in its designated place of storage I am not actually borrowing it regardless if that place is in my house or not.

 

Whether he is right or not who knows, but I find it very difficult to poke holes in his argument, but then I am not a solicitor.

 

Like I said earlier, I see the merits in the argument, I also see the fact that if someone else has access to the cabinet for a period of 72 hours or more since the guns were last touched then he needs it on his certificate, use whatever words you like, there is an argument for it, and like it or not it is simple to get it on two certificates anyway, use borrowed/lent/stored/given/whatever!