First Attempt

[Guest cookoff013]

Is there a predetermined limit for the standard deviation that the proof houses use? A long term goal is to eventually send a batch off to the proof house to be tested.

there are stats that need to be passed. but i wont bore you just yet. get the crimps working first. they should be slightly angular from the final crimp. but should still look and perform near as factory. the RTO / finishing tool is to make bad crimps look good, and great crimps look like factory. it costs £36 for 20 shell to be tested. "good lad".

 

This is a good crimp done without a spinner I would guess the wad is 1 mm too high

 

Deershooter

i can get my loads looking this good, the radial die on my 9000 does a grand job.

 

Used cases usually crimp better than new cases, because the plastic 'knows where to go'. (Called 'crimp memory').

Remember, too, that plastics can VARY.

Spin them for a final finish.

+1

plastics are getting thinner and less dense.

when i crimp new cases i have to do this.

 

pre crimp really deep, hold down the precrimp for a good few seconds to really really stress out that new case. i really "tease" those petal folds. when i release the folds stay put. not a sausage moves. no flex diddley squat. i move that over to the final crimp. and i fold that right over, the crimp plunger is set quite deep, but the result is like deershooters. i use the 8point crimp because it looks more round than the 6 point. also it looks more jazzy.

[UK fowler]

if it is perfect you are after you cant beat a spinner .as said new cases are a art form to crimp well on a cheep loader but you are doing well so far

 

[Cyrus1988]

Big thanks to everyone, can't believe how helpful everyone is, you're all a huge credit to PW.

 

Going to try out all the tips when I get home from work and hopefully have some decent crimps to post later tonight.

 

Thanks again.

[rbrowning2]

P.S that is a cracking load similar to RC SIPE 32gm at about £265 per 1000 shop price, all you need to do is sort the crimp out to the same standard as UK fowler - then job done.

Edited October 1, 2014 by rbrowning2

[turbo33]

Massive thanks to turbo33, just finished another one and it looks even better.

 

Looks better It also looks like the shot has bulked up a bit under a couple of the petals, so its high on the edge and still a bit deep in the centre. Try giving the shell a little shake to settle the shot flat before you pre crimp. Then as Cookoff said, hold down on the pre-crimp to stress the plastic for several seconds and then do the same on the final crimp.

The reason I suggested trying loading a wad by hand is you will feel it come up against the powder. Do it again, then put it back in the Lee and "feel" when the wad rammer comes up against it. This may be some way short of pulling the handle right down. Take a measurement of where this occurs, say on the de prime station and cut yourself a small block of wood that you can slip in. Next time you pop a wad in and pull the handle down, pop the piece of wood in place and it will give you the correct wad depth every time. Little bit of a faf, but, hey, there's no hurry

 

You can do the coin bit.....but you can also just trim .5-.75mm off the final crimp tube. This will give you a more permanent arrangement.

 

Oh, and as the others have said, get a spinner if you can afford it. It will finish those off as they are, really nicely

Hope this helps.

[Paladin]

It just don't look as if your handle is bottoming, you should have some taper on those and a deeper crimp.

 

Look on youtube there are loads of videos on there for the Lee Loadall ll and some very good re loads.

 

You shouldn't need a spinner but if you do get one, don't over do it as the pressure will go up.

[rbrowning2]

It just don't look as if your handle is bottoming, you should have some taper on those and a deeper crimp.

 

Look on youtube there are loads of videos on there for the Lee Loadall ll and some very good re loads.

 

You shouldn't need a spinner but if you do get one, don't over do it as the pressure will go up.

 

Is that not the idea? i.e. 100% powder burn giving maximum efficiency from the load? Just reduce the powder to compensate but I would expect most published data from powder manufactures assume a professional crimp.

[Uncle Albert]

Big thanks to everyone, can't believe how helpful everyone is, you're all a huge credit to PW.

 

Going to try out all the tips when I get home from work and hopefully have some decent crimps to post later tonight.

 

Thanks again.

 

From one newby to reloading, they are coming on. Cookoff helped me through the reloading minefield till I think I am getting the hang of it. I am by no means as expert as some on here but to me it looks as though you need to go further down on the handle. I use a Lee Load-All II as well and as Cookoff said to me, Load-All is more of a "feel" machine. Try pulling the handle down more. It looks to me that the edge of the crimp will lift and bring up the petals.

 

As I say I'm no expert by any means. We get there in the end.

 

Uncle Albert.

[Paladin]

 

Is that not the idea? i.e. 100% powder burn giving maximum efficiency from the load? Just reduce the powder to compensate but I would expect most published data from powder manufactures assume a professional crimp.

 

I worked for a sporting cartridge manufacturer and had to back off turnovers to keep the loads in proof. So yes I do know the idea as I would have at least six proofs a day.

[Cyrus1988]

Okay guys I've tried all the tips you've gave me. I've tried to push down more on the last crimp stage and it's buckled the case, not sure if the photos are good enough to show it. I take it that means I used too much pressure?

 

Edited October 1, 2014 by Cyrus1988

[Guest cookoff013]

How long is the excess that you are crimping? On a 12gauge should be 12mm.

That measurement is taken when all components are put together, you measure from the lead to the top of the case.

[Cyrus1988]

How long is the excess that you are crimping? On a 12gauge should be 12mm.

That measurement is taken when all components are put together, you measure from the lead to the top of the case.

Just measured it using the calipers and it looks to between 11mm and 12mm. So maybe take a bit of shot out till I've got bang on 12mm?

[sitsinhedges]

It's difficult to advise about a different machine but on mine a shell buckling just above the brass usually means the case is too full for the available volume so when the crimping punch comes down to recess the crimp there isn't enough space and so the shell gives way and crushes. I resolve it by backing off the final crimp a little which gives the shell a bit more volume but the folds of the crimp still need to come together properly so the shot are retained.If that doesn't work a smaller wad might be in order.

[Cyrus1988]

It also looks like the case buckles a bit just below the crimp after the first crimp station.

What do you guys do with all the cartridges you load that are completely perfect? I have quite a few piled up now with less than desirable crimps, could I still use them in the gun?

[deershooter]

They look amazing, what loader are you using?

These are loaded on a MEC 600 junior I have made an extended crimp punch and increased the size of the roller on the cam to give me better control

 

Standard load 1.3 g PB Claromont 4160 powder B&P T2 wad 28 grams of 7.5 shot CX2000 primer

 

All components available from George Young @proper cartridges

 

Deershooter

[rbrowning2]

The mec press has a cam action that allows you to adjust the finall crimp in an exact way a little at the time.

 

What's in the case powder, wad, shot must go together to ensure that they are ballistically sound and give a good final crimp.

 

Thats why when starting out is is good to follow tried and tested data. Substituting components may or may not alter the ballistic much but could be the difference from a good or bad crimp. Both SIPE and 4160 are double based powder resulting in the need for different wads than a load with buky single base powder would use.

 

If you have to much space from the top of the case to the shot in the 70mm case (probably measure up at 69mm) you could try a 67mm case.

 

But as said before when you can invest in a spinner you will be very pleased you did under £40 for spinner and case holder from FES just add a cheap bench drill from wicks, B&Q or machine mart etc.

[turbo33]

Morning Cyrus,

Right, assuming you don't lose the will to live , I've been taking some measurements for you which may help. I don't usually use plastic wads, so here goes.

 

70mm Fiocchi new shell. Case length from brass to plastic 70mm. (FES)

24grns/1.55 grms of A1 powder (FES)

B&P z2m-21 wad ( FES)

Measuring inside the case with the wad in/ from the bottom of the cup to the lip of the case...32,5mm

Measuring from the top of the wad to the edge of the case......15mm

32 grms #6 shot

Measuring from the shot level to the top of the case........14mm

 

Pics her shows that the combined components are a little low, hence the dip in the centre of the shell.

 

 

and again

 

So dropping in a card disc into the wad cup and therefore raising the shot up a tad, (20g overshot card) gives a 12mm height from the shot to the top of the case.

 

 

 

These are as they have come off the Lee Loadall press, no spinner.

 

Looking back over your posts, I think your main problem is the wad, I don't think its deep enough. Its probably for a 28/30grm load. Can you get a 21 as opposed to the 24 you are using? You can see from these pics how sensitive a 1mm difference is between good and not so good, any more would be horrible!!!

 

 

Stick with it though, as you can see, the Lee Loadall can do the job really well and is a shed load less hassle and money than a Mec!!

 

Hope this helps.

Edited October 2, 2014 by turbo33

[Cyrus1988]

The mec press has a cam action that allows you to adjust the finall crimp in an exact way a little at the time.

 

What's in the case powder, wad, shot must go together to ensure that they are ballistically sound and give a good final crimp.

 

Thats why when starting out is is good to follow tried and tested data. Substituting components may or may not alter the ballistic much but could be the difference from a good or bad crimp. Both SIPE and 4160 are double based powder resulting in the need for different wads than a load with buky single base powder would use.

 

If you have to much space from the top of the case to the shot in the 70mm case (probably measure up at 69mm) you could try a 67mm case.

 

But as said before when you can invest in a spinner you will be very pleased you did under £40 for spinner and case holder from FES just add a cheap bench drill from wicks, B&Q or machine mart etc.

Ah right, I hadn't thought about the overall length of the case. The cases I bought were advertised as 70mm but I've not even checked them, what a rookie! I'll measure some up tonight and get the mean.

 

You've sold me on the spinner idea but I think it'll be a couple of pay days away yet. I want to make sure I get my crimps as good as possible before using one though.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[Guest cookoff013]

These are loaded on a MEC 600 junior I have made an extended crimp punch and increased the size of the roller on the cam to give me better control

 

Standard load 1.3 g PB Claromont 4160 powder B&P T2 wad 28 grams of 7.5 shot CX2000 primer

 

All components available from George Young @proper cartridges

 

Deershooter

 

sorry for the hijack, but i believe i have highlighted a really good point.

[rbrowning2]

You have, but cyrus1988 is using a lee Loadall 2 not an MEC, so the mod does not apply even if he had the equipment and skill (like deershooter) to make the mod.

 

Nobody likes to spend money if possible, but a spinner will tidy up a bad crimp all day long and give results like UK Fowler post #27 and take away a lot of the pain in adjusting the final crimp stage of any Lee or MEC press in fact you can spin down from the pre-crimp stage if you want just like the manufactures do using BSN etc machines.

 

What he has made will work so use them for a while and gain some experience then when ready consider the spinner to give a more polished apperance.

[deershooter]

Cookoff13 do you have a link where people can buy them ?

 

Deershooter

[Guest cookoff013]

also.

 

when i was first getting to grips with the mec i had an awful time sorting out the final crimp station, i striooed it all down and loaded up the crimp punch only no body.

i realised the crimp plunger is too short.

 

i have some photo`s somewhere but cant put them on my pc. i think i need some glue?

[pestcontrol1]

You are getting there , Try this and see if it will make a difference , With the cartridge you have just crimped put a 5p piece on top in the centre and try re crimping.

In stead of a 5p which is a touch to big you need a one cent coin crimp them as normal lift the handle pop on top your cent coin depress your handle again and that will make a huge difference but will be even better with a spin

Plus when you drop your plas wad into the hull make sure your putting pressure into it to bend the legs a little also dont know said it but yes you may need to cut a couple of mm off the bottom of the final crimp.

But things are looking good keep going you will get there

Edited October 2, 2014 by pestcontrol1

[Cyrus1988]

Morning Cyrus,

Right, assuming you don't lose the will to live , I've been taking some measurements for you which may help. I don't usually use plastic wads, so here goes.

 

70mm Fiocchi new shell. Case length from brass to plastic 70mm. (FES)

24grns/1.55 grms of A1 powder (FES)

B&P z2m-21 wad ( FES)

Measuring inside the case with the wad in/ from the bottom of the cup to the lip of the case...32,5mm

Measuring from the top of the wad to the edge of the case......15mm

32 grms #6 shot

Measuring from the shot level to the top of the case........14mm

 

Pics her shows that the combined components are a little low, hence the dip in the centre of the shell.

 

 

and again

 

So dropping in a card disc into the wad cup and therefore raising the shot up a tad, (20g overshot card) gives a 12mm height from the shot to the top of the case.

 

 

 

These are as they have come off the Lee Loadall press, no spinner.

 

Looking back over your posts, I think your main problem is the wad, I don't think its deep enough. Its probably for a 28/30grm load. Can you get a 21 as opposed to the 24 you are using? You can see from these pics how sensitive a 1mm difference is between good and not so good, any more would be horrible!!!

 

 

Stick with it though, as you can see, the Lee Loadall can do the job really well and is a shed load less hassle and money than a Mec!!

 

Hope this helps.

Thanks again for all your help, I got home and took some measurements and here's what I found.

 

70mm Cheddite new shell. Case length from brass to plastic 69mm.

1.5grams of SIPE powder

Aquila T2H24

Measuring inside the case with the wad in/ from the bottom of the cup to the lip of the case...33.3mm

Measuring from the top of the wad to the edge of the case......17mm

32 grms #5.5 shot

Measuring from the shot level to the top of the case........12mm

I found a box of shot cards that must of came with the loader so cut one down so it'll fit in the wad. Will measure it up and load it and see what happen.

Thanks again for the help.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Cyrus1988

[pestcontrol1]

 

if it is perfect you are after you cant beat a spinner .as said new cases are a art form to crimp well on a cheep loader but you are doing well so far

 

 

perfect as normal Mr what hulls are you using cheds