223 for deer 1st oct, england and wales.

[markbivvy]

http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/regulation...s/proposals.asp

 

Enable licensed taking or killing at night to prevent deterioration of the natural heritage;

Enable licensed taking or killing at night to preserve public health and safety;

Enable licensed taking or killing at night to prevent serious damage to property

interesting.

 

stand by.

[Poacher]

They all seem pretty reasonable

One of the amendments is to

"Allow any reasonable means of humanely despatching deer that are suffering due to injuries or disease"

 

Do they realise that this will ruin the most popular topic on shooting forums of dispatching knocked down deer with shotguns.

[Frank]

interesting.

 

Good luck fellas, i hope you get to shoot them wee roe and muntys with something more suitable.

 

Frank.

[v-max]

The 22.cf is a good round on roe have used it for 12yrs used to be a 222 but know for 6/7yrs a 22.250 & found it the best round iv used but like every think they have down side's & end of may cover end's your shooting in the rib's.Like the bit about the taken of deer that maybe suffering or likely to suffer or be deprived from there mother etc.

[markbivvy]

Do they realise that this will ruin the most popular topic on shooting forums of dispatching knocked down deer with shotguns.

 

i think house members must be on here as guests mate.

[njc110381]

It's about time they sorted the act out a bit really. Shooting a muntjac with a .243 has always confused me, what with wanting to eat some of it once it's been butchered. This should mean a lot less wasted meat, and also the ability to shoot small deer on land not suitable for .243+. My FEO said that .223 is classed as mid range, so they don't expect to see a DSC before I can have one. Maybe soon I'll be shooting deer on my permission

[mry716]

Do they realise that this will ruin the most popular topic on shooting forums of dispatching knocked down deer with shotguns.

 

i think house members must be on here as guests mate.

 

 

No it wont !

 

Why is the proposal not the same as Scotland 's present legislation so we have a UK law. It will still mean we can use the 20 cals up north but only 22s down south.

 

Now what do you all think about using the 204 for deer? Some find it a super cal and more than man enough for the largest moose so........................................

 

 

[Frank]

The .204 is desighned with small varmints in mind, the .223 is desighned for a lot more.

Hence, in a lot of states in the US and also in oz and New zealand, it gets used a fair bit, compared to bigger calibers on deer.

 

Frank.

[mry716]

I did say it tongue in cheek Frank. In fact I am of the opinion that the 223 is also only suitable for small quarry and for any deer a 6mm or 25cal should be min. In fact I will not take anone out after Fallow if they are using a 243 - I have had to many deer wounded that needed following up so a 25 is min for me for Fallow. And I use a 204, 223, 222 or 22-250 for Hares and the like - nothing bigger.

 

I have shot 15lb Munties with the .325WSM and a 220 grn bullet travelling at nigh on 2800fps without ANY meat damage. No head left but no meat damage. I am a great believer in using a bigger rather than smaller cal for whatever.

 

I realise others have diffeent opinions and they are fully entitled to hold them BUT not on my patch.

[Frank]

So, you condem .22 Centerfire rifles to be used against muntjack and roe?

I am just giving my opinion sir and experiences. :(

 

Frank.

[mry716]

Sorry Frank, I did not mean to cause any upset.

 

My opinion is mine alone and I never force it on anyone else as long as their choice doesn't intrude on my personal circumstances.

 

I genuinely believe that Roe, Muntjac and CWD should be shot with something more than a 22 CF, not because of the calibre but the bullet weight. That is my opinion based on my experience and the only time I impose that opinion on others is if they wish to shoot with me. No one will use a 22 cf on small deer when shooting with me on the land I look after. For Fallow and larger no one will use anything less than a 25 cal.

 

That doesn't mean I am right and others are wrong but it does mean that on my patch I will be getting far fewer problems if everyone uses a larger rather than smaller calibre rifle. In the past I have had far too many 'friends' come shooting with me and wounding deer because of the cal rifle they carried. Since I requested they bring something 'larger' the problems have all but disappeared. This leads me to make the inevitable choice that I make.

 

 

One last comment re 22 cf for deer.

 

I am very concerned that there will be far more wounded deer in the future simply because people will be intentionally or in ignorance using the wrong bullet. There are far more Varmint style bullets than Hunting bullets for the 22Cf's and I am afraid some folk will be using bullets that are much too explosive. Some even post now of their use of these bullets (on other forums) in other cals and that aspect I do find very worrying.

[Dunkield]

In simple terms it comes down to allowing yourself a margin or error.

Once that margin is dramatically reduced, you need to get it right, not nearly right.

Most calibres will do the business with a nice broadside shot, presented at 50 yards out - but as we all know real life isn't quite like that

[Frank]

In simple terms it comes down to allowing yourself a margin or error.

Once that margin is dramatically reduced, you need to get it right, not nearly right.

Most calibres will do the business with a nice broadside shot, presented at 50 yards out - but as we all know real life isn't quite like that

 

:o :blink:

 

I find, just because you have a BIG caliber, some folks take shots that are willy nilly and think it will be ok when the deer is hit.

How far from the truth this is, you have to be pricise with all calibers, infact, i will goes as far as to say, the .22 Cf, using correct bullets, will dump all their energy, in the chest of a deer, far more readily, then a BIG centerfire rifle.

 

Folks that dont shoot deer often, panick, when they see one, then start to shake, get buck fever and flinch all over the shop, as they know the big caliber will kick like a mule when fired, result, a poor wounded deer ect.

 

All my experinces with big CF rifles and bullets have been that they pass straight threw the deer, loosing very little energy, a bit like using a FMJ. :blink:

 

Frank.

[dusk2dawn]

In simple terms it comes down to allowing yourself a margin or error.

Once that margin is dramatically reduced, you need to get it right, not nearly right.

Most calibres will do the business with a nice broadside shot, presented at 50 yards out - but as we all know real life isn't quite like that

 

:o :blink:

 

I find, just because you have a BIG caliber, some folks take shots that are willy nilly and think it will be ok when the deer is hit.

How far from the truth this is, you have to be pricise with all calibers, infact, i will goes as far as to say, the .22 Cf, using correct bullets, will dump all their energy, in the chest of a deer, far more readily, then a BIG centerfire rifle.

 

Folks that dont shoot deer often, panick, when they see one, then start to shake, get buck fever and flinch all over the shop, as they know the big caliber will kick like a mule when fired, result, a poor wounded deer ect.

 

All my experinces with big CF rifles and bullets have been that they pass straight threw the deer, loosing very little energy, a bit like using a FMJ. :blink:

 

Frank.

 

 

 

 

Frank can I ask what .22cf type/brand of bullett you would favour for small deer, bearing in mind your very relevant comment regarding energy etc. D2D

[Axe]

This is gonna play hell with the FEO's, FLO,s and the Homeoffice guidlines. :blink: :blink:

[Peter_HMR]

The bigger calibres allow a greater margain of error but thats not to say a .22CF wont drop them you just have to be accurate in where you shoot so in that regard the bigger calibres are more suitable but the person behind the gun shouldnt be shooting deer unless they can produce the results on paper if you can hit the kill zone on paper with a .22CF i dont see a problem they will go down if you hit them in the right place.

 

The only other problem then is buckfever or getting the shakes whatever you want to call it and i think one solution for this is to go hunting without your rifle a couple of times stalk the deer get close to them and get used to them.

 

I dont like the idea of giving people higher cal rifles because they're not able to hit the kill zone i think if people are not capable only let them shoot on the range were they cant do damage.

[mry716]

One thing not really mentioned in all this discussion is how your quarry may feel about the change in the law, and at the end of the day that is perhaps the most important aspect.

 

I am sorry folks but margin of error as a reason for a larger cal is not justification.

 

I shoot around 50-60 deer most seasons and overall I have found that the heavier bullets do more immediate damage and result in a easier, and more importantly more humane kills than the lighter ones.

 

Based on the experience of many years and many hundred of deer shot I offered my guidelines in previous posts above.

 

I am not saying I am 'right' and I realise others have different opinions but for me and anyone that wishes to shoot with me my ideas and decisions are fixed. 22 Cf's will not be used even for Muntjac or CWD. Nothing less than a 25 will be used for Fallow AND Sika and Red need a min 30 cal. All deer will be neck shot from the rear if the opportunity arises.

 

Over the years I have shot deer with all sorts of weapons from rimfire and shotgun to a range of centre fires including 22CF, 24, 25, 6.5, 270, 7mm, 30, 8mm and using different bullet weights. I can therefore say with first hand knowledge that I have found bullet weight is the most important factor in a clean kill.

 

Even increasing a 308 from 150 to 180grn has a noticeably beneficial effect.

A deer shot in the chest with a 150gn at 150 yds ran nigh on 300yds before expiring simply because of the Adrenalin from my previous shot at another deer close by.

 

On another occasion a deer shot at 120yds that came out of a wood to see what the commotion was about. (I had shot a couple on the field some 80yds from the wood edge) My shot lifted it off its nearside feet and it fell onto its side and expired with a 180 grn from a 308.

 

Push that up to 220grn and a deer hit in the neck trotting directly towards me was lifted complete off its feet and tumbled backward at over 100yds.

 

On the other hand.............

A Roe shot in the chest (side shot) with a 22-250 at 70yds jumped and ran into woodland some 400yds away without hesitation and it took me over 3 hours to find it. it was lung shot and bleeding from chest (with froth) and from mouth BUT still alive.,

 

Now that is 3 hours of suffering that would not have occurred if shot with a 25 or 30 cal.

 

Despite the large numbers of lives I have taken I still get quite emotional at leaving anything to suffer if it could have been avoided. My choice of calibres gives me an edge in avoiding that suffering and I can see no reason why all of us should not go down that road as well - out of choice and not because the law says so.

[Frank]

In simple terms it comes down to allowing yourself a margin or error.

Once that margin is dramatically reduced, you need to get it right, not nearly right.

Most calibres will do the business with a nice broadside shot, presented at 50 yards out - but as we all know real life isn't quite like that :unsure:

 

 

I find, just because you have a BIG caliber, some folks take shots that are willy nilly and think it will be ok when the deer is hit. :o

How far from the truth this is, you have to be pricise with all calibers, infact, i will goes as far as to say, the .22 Cf, using correct bullets, will dump all their energy, in the chest of a deer, far more readily, then a BIG centerfire rifle.

 

Folks that dont shoot deer often, panick, when they see one, then start to shake, get buck fever and flinch all over the shop, as they know the big caliber will kick like a mule when fired, result, a poor wounded deer ect. :(

 

All my experinces with big CF rifles and bullets have been that they pass straight threw the deer, loosing very little energy, a bit like using a FMJ.

 

Frank.

 

 

 

 

Frank can I ask what .22cf type/brand of bullett you would favour for small deer, bearing in mind your very relevant comment regarding energy etc. D2D

 

What do you think? As you seem to know your self already.

 

Frank.

 

 

One thing not really mentioned in all this discussion is how your quarry may feel about the change in the law, and at the end of the day that is perhaps the most important aspect.

 

I am sorry folks but margin of error as a reason for a larger cal is not justification.

 

I shoot around 50-60 deer most seasons and overall I have found that the heavier bullets do more immediate damage and result in a easier, and more importantly more humane kills than the lighter ones.

 

Based on the experience of many years and many hundred of deer shot I offered my guidelines in previous posts above.

 

I am not saying I am 'right' and I realise others have different opinions but for me and anyone that wishes to shoot with me my ideas and decisions are fixed. 22 Cf's will not be used even for Muntjac or CWD. Nothing less than a 25 will be used for Fallow AND Sika and Red need a min 30 cal. All deer will be neck shot from the rear if the opportunity arises.

 

Over the years I have shot deer with all sorts of weapons from rimfire and shotgun to a range of centre fires including 22CF, 24, 25, 6.5, 270, 7mm, 30, 8mm and using different bullet weights. I can therefore say with first hand knowledge that I have found bullet weight is the most important factor in a clean kill.

 

Even increasing a 308 from 150 to 180grn has a noticeably beneficial effect.

A deer shot in the chest with a 150gn at 150 yds ran nigh on 300yds before expiring simply because of the Adrenalin from my previous shot at another deer close by.

 

On another occasion a deer shot at 120yds that came out of a wood to see what the commotion was about. (I had shot a couple on the field some 80yds from the wood edge) My shot lifted it off its nearside feet and it fell onto its side and expired with a 180 grn from a 308.

 

Push that up to 220grn and a deer hit in the neck trotting directly towards me was lifted complete off its feet and tumbled backward at over 100yds.

 

On the other hand.............

A Roe shot in the chest (side shot) with a 22-250 at 70yds jumped and ran into woodland some 400yds away without hesitation and it took me over 3 hours to find it. it was lung shot and bleeding from chest (with froth) and from mouth BUT still alive.,

 

Now that is 3 hours of suffering that would not have occurred if shot with a 25 or 30 cal.

 

Despite the large numbers of lives I have taken I still get quite emotional at leaving anything to suffer if it could have been avoided. My choice of calibres gives me an edge in avoiding that suffering and I can see no reason why all of us should not go down that road as well - out of choice and not because the law says so.

 

Fair point Mry , each to their own ha.

 

Frank.

[Browning]

One thing not really mentioned in all this discussion is how your quarry may feel about the change in the law, and at the end of the day that is perhaps the most important aspect.

 

I am sorry folks but margin of error as a reason for a larger cal is not justification.

 

I shoot around 50-60 deer most seasons and overall I have found that the heavier bullets do more immediate damage and result in a easier, and more importantly more humane kills than the lighter ones.

 

Based on the experience of many years and many hundred of deer shot I offered my guidelines in previous posts above.

 

I am not saying I am 'right' and I realise others have different opinions but for me and anyone that wishes to shoot with me my ideas and decisions are fixed. 22 Cf's will not be used even for Muntjac or CWD. Nothing less than a 25 will be used for Fallow AND Sika and Red need a min 30 cal. All deer will be neck shot from the rear if the opportunity arises.

 

Over the years I have shot deer with all sorts of weapons from rimfire and shotgun to a range of centre fires including 22CF, 24, 25, 6.5, 270, 7mm, 30, 8mm and using different bullet weights. I can therefore say with first hand knowledge that I have found bullet weight is the most important factor in a clean kill.

 

Even increasing a 308 from 150 to 180grn has a noticeably beneficial effect.

A deer shot in the chest with a 150gn at 150 yds ran nigh on 300yds before expiring simply because of the Adrenalin from my previous shot at another deer close by.

 

On another occasion a deer shot at 120yds that came out of a wood to see what the commotion was about. (I had shot a couple on the field some 80yds from the wood edge) My shot lifted it off its nearside feet and it fell onto its side and expired with a 180 grn from a 308.

 

Push that up to 220grn and a deer hit in the neck trotting directly towards me was lifted complete off its feet and tumbled backward at over 100yds.

 

On the other hand.............

A Roe shot in the chest (side shot) with a 22-250 at 70yds jumped and ran into woodland some 400yds away without hesitation and it took me over 3 hours to find it. it was lung shot and bleeding from chest (with froth) and from mouth BUT still alive.,

 

Now that is 3 hours of suffering that would not have occurred if shot with a 25 or 30 cal.

 

Despite the large numbers of lives I have taken I still get quite emotional at leaving anything to suffer if it could have been avoided. My choice of calibres gives me an edge in avoiding that suffering and I can see no reason why all of us should not go down that road as well - out of choice and not because the law says so.

 

 

What an excellent post ! :unsure: