3 Cartridge Only Semi Auto. ?.

[GADWALL41]

Does anybody Know of a Semi Auto or Pump action Shotgun Available New to buy on the market ,

That will Only !! Hold 3 Cartridges ?. ( 1 in the Spout and 2 in the Magazine ).

 

My Home Police force want More changes to Firearms Legislation here and are seeking to Ban ALL Semi and Pump Action

Shotguns , among other changes , that Can take more than 3 rounds . They do not want to accept any guns that are Plugged to hold

just 2 rounds , UNLESS THEY ARE RENDERED PERMANENTLY CAPABLE OF ONLY HOLDING 2 ROUNDS .

They do not state what modifications they will accept or who will inspect the Guns so modified .

 

The Best Bit is , The CONFISCATION PROCESS WOULD TAKE PLACE WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION for the firearms lost ,

Lovely . The police here and Gun owner organisations have been at each others throats for the past 5 years at least and here we go again .

 

Fabarm used to make the EURO 3 and I had 1 , till I wore it out , 14 years and 2 new ACTION BARS fitted and broke , it just wasn't going to last

.

 

I stand to loose NEARLY €6000, IF THIS GOES AHEAD , so any help or ideas would be Great .

 

I have looked at , cutting the Mag tube and inserting a disc and brazing it up to hold 2 carts . But again, that could be undone , so who knows if they accept that idea.

 

Much gun regs and issues from around the world quoted in their documents , if you wish to read , hit the page link and look at the bottom of the opening page for this item

Department of Justice and Equality/An Garda Síochána Working Group on Review of Firearms Licensing

 

 

http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000319

 

any ideas would be Great , thanks

Edited November 30, 2014 by GADWALL41

[fenboy]

Just about all the ones we can buy over here are 2+1 , we have not been allowed higher capacity for years without FAC.

 

They normally come with the magazine which has been crimped to prevent more than two cartridges being put in.

[GADWALL41]

We are the Same here ,

But what is different now is that they will no longer ACCEPT a Crimp Or a Plug .

 

I Have had semi autos for over 25yrs and I have never ever Removed the plug and gone shooting with the gun .

Once a season Strip down and clean it all , plug comes out .

 

I used to have a Maxus , until it had to Go Home to Belgium for 5 months for repair. That guns plug just twists out , Viola 5 Shots !.

 

I have a Beretta XTREME 400 12g, 3 shot , plug out 5 , same with my Just brand new first season 20 G A 400 , Easy to remove plug .

 

So it has to be 3 and Only 3 .. I was surprised to see from their quoted figures there are only just short of 9,000 Licences for semi and pump shotguns

over here out of a total of 180,000 Shotgun licences in total, so that's a very small number , more Likely to be screwed over .

 

The FABARM EURO 3 has a much smaller forend to hold just 2 rounds ,

 

 

If anybody has time , there are loads of round the world examples they quote of incidents and legislation to back up their proposed legislation ,

 

 

 

[CaptainBeaky]

I can understand them not accepting a magazine plug, because they are easily removed, but a crimp?

The only way to remove a crimp is to replace the tube entirely.

UK spec is crimped and pinned in or Loctited so it can't be removed without serious tools and a lot of effort (there is a document from the Proof House detailing this somewhere).

I would be most surprised if your police wouldn't accept this spec - that or this is just an excuse to remove guns from the public.

[fenboy]

Strange that they will not accept a crimp , I see that as a permanent restriction.

[GADWALL41]

Hi ,

thanks for the info .

 

Yes It is my considered opinion that the Police in this country do Not want and have not wanted Guns of any sort in Private hands for Many years past .

 

Relations between all parties are very poor . We have just 4 years ago undergone Huge changes in Licensing , etc and we all had the hope a period of Stability

would be reached , silly me .

 

att , the wording , with no standard set out in the proposed

act or notes as to what they consider PERMANENT ----and the reasons for no compensation , A DANGER TO PUBLIC SAFETY .

 

Yet the Revocation process is only due to take place upon renewal date of the said firearm .

 

SO ITS DANGEROUS , YOU WILL NOT BE COMPENSATED FOR ITS LOSS and you can hold onto it until your licence is due for renewal .

Boy that's as they state , makes no sense to me .

 

[panoma1]

If modification or adaption of a S/A shotgun to restrict the cartridge capacity is as per European proof guidelines then that is European (CIP) standard, Eire is a member of the EEC, so I imagine the garda must accept this standard?

[SuperGoose75]

My buddy called around the other night with a petition to sign. I personally dont like or use Semi's but for the good of the sport and to try and defend what surley will only be yet another nail in the coffin for want of a better phrase' I stuck my name on it.

 

Funny thing is it is legal to have five cartridges in the gun to use against Vermon/pests.

 

Like yourself I just dont get it' but nothing surprise's me in this Crazy country at present

[GADWALL41]

thanks for the info guys ,

I can see a rush to have Our semis sent to the UK for work done and Proof house Magazine stamps .

I can also see the cost go shooting Upward for Shipping etc ,

 

I will call into my RFD for a chat this week ,

 

I found the Spec CaptainB mentioned and if that standard satisfies the UK authorities , it should do here , I hope ,

 

Thanks

[Guest stevo]

put it on a section 1 and stop worrying

[HDAV]

Beretta UGB25 Xcel is what you need!

 

http://www.beretta.com/en/ugb25-xcel/

[fenboy]

put it on a section 1 and stop worrying

 

I think being in Ireland they are already on a FAC ? , you even need one for a airgun over there.

[HDAV]

If modification or adaption of a S/A shotgun to restrict the cartridge capacity is as per European proof guidelines then that is European (CIP) standard, Eire is a member of the EEC, so I imagine the garda must accept this standard?

CIP is not the same boundaries as EU, Argentina are CIP it's purely down to proof houses accepting each others proof. The us use plugs (removable) for migratory bird shooting with their semis (5 shot) sounds like they want you stop the use of plugs in Ireland AFAIK the mag tubes are detachable for most semis

[GADWALL41]

We do indeed need a licence for all airguns . We even treat Moderators as a firearm in its own right and this comes Stamped as a Letter S , Silencer on your FAC.

 

You can get an exemption for use of the 5 rounds in a semi or Pump , Subject to your need and satisfying the local Superintendent of same .

This is Problematic and varies from Station to station mostly issued to Land owners and professional Pest control guys, very few .

 

Some Police stations will only Issue permission to purchase ammunition to a max of 100 rounds and other stations will issue up to 1000 and more .

The variances from area to area , to my mind make the law , Silly !.

 

 

We do indeed need a licence for all airguns

 

Both of those A400s were imported from Germany , my RFD has contacts there . Now that I think about it when the 400 20g , was imported in Jan 14 due to new regulations on importation of firearms into Ireland , it was broken down into 2 pieces and shipped as 2 separate packages , with increased costs to me .

I hope that will not mean 4 parcels to Birmingham , if and when that time comes .

 

An Idea for you guys of Our Duck population here in this fine weather ! we are having .

 

Wegion numbers are Down on the past 2 seasons of sure , from a third to Half at a guess and I have looked right across my areas of interest .

Teal numbers started well , but now they have dropped way down , Mallard are down but not by as much .

This far south we don't get Geese that we can shoot at the time we can shoot them , but there are the normal amount of Brents around .

Gadwall numbers are up , but there all in sanctuary areas , no Shov or Pins seen yet .

[HDAV]

hmm why from germany i wonder? are GMK the official beretta distributor to Eire? Perhaps your RFD has been grey importing to increase his sales/profit?

 

 

Seems Ardee sport are the official distributor http://www.beretta.com/en/ardee-sports-company/

[deershooter]

Are you not covered by the wildlife and countryside act 1981 over there ?

 

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

 

Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semi-automatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment and Rural (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

 

Any landowner giving permission to anyone who does not hold the appropriate DEFRA licence to use a Section 1 shotgun or any rifle with a magazine capacity of more than two rounds for such activities, will also commit an offence under Section 5.

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

On conviction, a court can order the forfeiture of anything used to commit the offence, including firearms or even vehicles (Section 21 WCA).

 

Whilst there is little dispute that birds such as wild geese and Canada geese are destructive and a nuisance to farmers, etc., they are not legally classified as vermin by either the RSPB or DEFRA. In fact all birds are protected. Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns.

[HDAV]

That's uk legislation ? OP is in Eire

[fenboy]

Are you not covered by the wildlife and countryside act 1981 over there ?

 

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

 

Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semi-automatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment and Rural (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

 

Any landowner giving permission to anyone who does not hold the appropriate DEFRA licence to use a Section 1 shotgun or any rifle with a magazine capacity of more than two rounds for such activities, will also commit an offence under Section 5.

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

On conviction, a court can order the forfeiture of anything used to commit the offence, including firearms or even vehicles (Section 21 WCA).

 

Whilst there is little dispute that birds such as wild geese and Canada geese are destructive and a nuisance to farmers, etc., they are not legally classified as vermin by either the RSPB or DEFRA. In fact all birds are protected. Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns.

 

I cannot see why that is relevent to him , he has already stated that his guns are restricted to 2+1 and is thefore legal under the WLACA .

I very much doubt the exact same act exists in Ireland.

[GADWALL41]

Firstly thanks for all the Replies,

 

 

In the Deep South Of Eire here Guys , Co Cork on the Coast .

 

2 x Wildlife acts and Several Firearms Acts apply , they even changed the Law on Firearms use Under An amendment to the Criminal Justice act on their last Outing .

 

I am well aware of all these acts and stay within the law at all times .

 

My comments and enquiries here were in Relation to Proposed New Legislation That our Police force want enacted next year.

 

Beretta Dealers. Hmm

 

Well HDAV, ARDEE SPORTS LOST ! , the Beretta dealership at the End of Last year .

It is now open to all RFDs to import from Whomever they wish , once they get the relevant paperwork from the DOJ .

 

I CAN ASSURE YOU I HAD ONE AND ONLY ONE dealing with ARDEE SPORTS .

I will not go into details here , but suffice to say I shall never , ever have any dealings with that company again.

 

The A400s imported from Germany , were, Are , perfectly Legal for use in Ireland - EIRE and not in the least Grey .

That particular RFD in fact went out of his way to Help me with My ARDEE issue , when he need not have bothered as he did not supply me that Gun .

 

Anyway that problem is solved now and thanks to CaptainBs info I have tracked down images and info of UK spec Mag tube modifications approved by UK Proof Houses.

if they are of a standard that will be accepted here then all those guns are UK bound .

 

I have of last week E mailed our Dept of Justice to see what spec they wish to apply, without a response as of yet . I can also tell you that in the 64 Page of proposals to the Government on amending the Law , inc this item , NO SUCH Specification was set out , just the wording , permanently capable of holding 3 rounds only .

 

I can still Lawfully go shooting this evening with My Plug in either A400 gun , once I only Load 3 cartridges I am Not guilty of any offence under current

Wildlife or Firearms acts ,

[Guest stevo]

 

I think being in Ireland they are already on a FAC ? , you even need one for a airgun over there.

ahhh yes good point , I forgot about that ,

[The Juicer]

Here in northern ireland, we are not allowed 5 shots at all. The psni come out to check it has a plug.thankfully that seems okay at the minute, unlike what the guards down south are planning. I checked recently with the local feo who confirmed, still only 3 shots allowed no matter what. I can only assume it's because of our troubled gun shootings history. And that's silly when people have 25 round mags for .22 rifles etc, or 30 round mags for 9.mm glocks. Seems absolutely daft to me. It's sad when 30 crows come in and you can only shoot 3. One way round it's to hold 3 shells in the mouth for fast reloading.......

[GADWALL41]

Update.

 

It has come to light this week that The Police are already , refusing to Issue Semi Auto FACs to new applicants in some Areas and the Submission period has nearly 8 weeks to run .

Instructions have been issued from the Department of Justice to Cease this practice forthwith.

 

Trust has been completely Lost by the police and they keep Shifting the goalposts .

 

As the Proposed Wording is , Semi Auto Manufactured to hold no more than 3 rounds our shooting bodies fear a round up and total ban on them , as The Guns are not coming from the factory with Short tube mags . This is where , no plugs or Crimps allowed comes into play .

 

I shall manage with an O U if I have to , but no 3 has been Very useful in Tackling those Stubborn Birds , Twice this week already

Edited December 4, 2014 by GADWALL41

[HDAV]

Hmm Ardee sports are still listed as the Eire distributor on the beretta EU website.

 

Looks like another case of badly worded legislation open to varying interpretation.

 

If the UK proof house crimp is not classed as acceptable then you may realistically be stuck. How do they interpret 3.5" chambered semis? Ghost loading?

 

Best of luck, seems there may be an opportunity for a canny gunmaker here but the market is probably too small.

[Guest cookoff013]

Benelli do a 2shot auto.

[HDAV]

There is of course another way of achieving 3 shots......

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g080CNxRsiw

There is of course another way of achieving 3 shots......

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g080CNxRsiw