Specific Reloading Questions - 243win

[Underdog]

This may be of help but please read it all.

 

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html?m=1

[neutron619]

That Mick is not a sign of over pressure!

It could simply be a sign of bolt thrust!

I will sincerely encourage you to measure the brass headabove the rim again. As long as it is under "004" growth after the shot you are good.

Do make sure the chamber is dry and free of oil or cleaning agents.

High pressure is needed for the case to grip the chamber at peak p, in fact the bolt does not hold peak pressure at all! Many experiments have proved this. Many automatic actions depend on this known fact!

 

Mick, if you had an over pressure situation that caused your issue with the bolt, believe me the brass would be trashed!

I have pushed brass so hard iI have had it come out looking like crazy paving all over the case! The action still opened though easily!

Measure the brass please.

 

U.

 

Sorry to contradict you U. but that very much can be a sign of excess pressure and the fact that he has all three signs in an attempted high power load suggests that very strongly. I'm sure your case measuring trick is valid and I'm not questioning your suggestion to him to do that. However, in case it wasn't clear from what's gone on above, the kind of charges we're talking about now are well over what QL predicts are safe. I realise that QL is only a model and not an exact guide, but the fact that his rifle and his loads are tying up with what QL says regarding reaching dangerous pressures should ring some warning bells at least. It is more likely that he is seeing high pressure in a tight-chambered rifle than that he's seeing poor obturation or sizing problems - we're not talking about 3 grains of pistol powder and squib loads here.

 

Apart from anything else, I have always been under the impression (yet to be contradicted by anything that I've yet seen or heard) that .243 Winchester is a cartridge which is quite often not deer legal. It just won't reliably produce 1700 ftlbs across a broad range of bullet weights and powders. The fact that the OP is getting very close to that number is, in my book, a story of success, not something to be rectified. I agree that, on paper, it should be pushing 2000ftlbs, if the published data is to be believed. However, in my (admittedly limited) experience, yours and fizzbangwallop's experiences are the exception, not the rule, and that the published data is - as I've called it already - "optimistic". I do think though, that H414 is a much better powder for .243, so I'm not surprised you got better velocities with that.

 

One question occurs to me - when was the powder bought? Didn't Vitavhouri go temporarily out of business then get bought up by someone else and re-start production elsewhere? I'm wondering if this could be a "cross-over" lot of powder that is a bit far out. I realise I'm grasping at straws there.

Edited February 25, 2015 by neutron619

[sixhills 69]

This may be of help but please read it all.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/basics-resizing-case-dimension-changes.html?m=1

[

 

That's a great post , I was told when I first started shooting that once you brass was fire formed neck size only I came across stiff bolts and the like changed my whole aproach I full length re-size all my brass now I us a LE Wlison case trimmer which gives spot on case length I don't get those days were you need to take a shot but the bolts tight and it takes your attention off the target anymore

Edited February 25, 2015 by sixhills 69

[sixhills 69]

My understanding was Vihtavuori went into administration and was purchased by Nammo they carried on production last year and have promised to expand production in the future. I myself have not seen a shortage in viht powders across the board and I would not think a coumpany like Nammo would stop production and move a company lock stock and barrel just to start messing with things.

[mick miller]

I was told that if I were going to use my reloads for hunting, of any type, to FL size. Purely from an 'easy to chamber follow up shot' perspective, rather than fanning around trying to chamber a tight round as something limps off into the distance.

 

I'm going to invest in a LE Wilson case gauge, it's forty quid but likely well worth it.

[fizzbangwhallop]

I was told that if I were going to use my reloads for hunting, of any type, to FL size. Purely from an 'easy to chamber follow up shot' perspective, rather than fanning around trying to chamber a tight round as something limps off into the distance.

 

I'm going to invest in a LE Wilson case gauge, it's forty quid but likely well worth it.

 

The first thing I do when reloading any calibre is to run all the fired cases through the rifle.... if they cycle then they just get a neck-size, if they don't they get a full length.

 

Saves all the hassle when you discover cases you should have full length'd don't fit.... often at the most inconvenient time.

 

Following up on Neutron's comment on the H414 giving good velocities with the 70grn BalTips... looking it up in my Edition 26 Hodgdon book, the starting load for H414 is 43.5grns with a standard Large Rifle primer giving 3187fps in a 26" barrel with 41,000 copper units of pressure...... the max load (best accuracy) is 47.5grns/3613fps/49,600cup's. The same figures are in my Nosler No 4 & 5 manuals..... which also shows Varget as the most accurate powder tested : 38.0grns giving 3338 fps and the max 42.0 with 3616fps giving the best accuracy.

 

The Nosler books don't mention N150 for the 70grns but do list N160 : Min 43.0 at 3167fps (most accurate load tested), Max 47.0grns at 3463fps. They do list N150 for the 55gns BalTips Start 41.0grns giving 3560fps, Max 45.0 with 3872fps (Most accurate load) and the most accurate powder was H414 starting at 48.5grns with 3684fps going to Max 52.5grns and 3982fps (Most accurate load).... substantially 'hotter' than the 70grn BalTips.

 

 

atb

 

Fizz

Edited February 25, 2015 by fizzbangwhallop

[Underdog]

Thanks neutron.

Reloaders long learnt before electronic gizmos that the case itself is a pressure measuring device only in brass not copper units. Yes brass is unreliable and very varied and that is why the old timers stuck at .004" of expansion. Not its length, its diameter just above the rim.

 

I agree 243 struggles to be legal but that is due to donkeys making laws and not a fault of the cartridge. A deer will never now!

I never liked H414. It was peaky I found.

 

My last 308 with 110grn bullets were tight going in and tight opening the bolt but that was due to neck sizing only and a trim. I wanted the case as big as possibly because 50grn of H4895 fills the case to the top!

However the brass head of the lap' brass never expanded above .003" and I got several reloads. In fact I only ever suffered split necks due to work hardening.

I have never seen 50 grn of 4895 listed anywhere for 110grn bullets in 308" so if anyone copies it they are on their own! Let's be clear, I worked this load up on my own the old way! No pooters, just measuring equipment, marked cases to measure at the same places. The federal primers had no craters from flowing into the firing pin hole also.

 

That all said. A case sized more helps pressure drop as it expands. This is good as it is during just before peak p. Which is when the bullet is still offering much resistance.

It is giving us more time for the bullet to move just a little bit more.

 

Having said that I am sure there is a phsycologicle aspect to this! Know such high pressures are involved it can scare us!

Be assured, you are not going to subject that rifle to anything dangerous with any published load from a reputable powder or bullet manufacturer!

 

U.

[neutron619]

I agree 243 struggles to be legal but that is due to donkeys making laws and not a fault of the cartridge. A deer will never now!

I never liked H414. It was peaky I found.

 

Quite - I don't particularly agree with setting limits as they're always going to be somewhat arbitrary, but I suppose it's a slight deterrent against numpties shooting them with a rimfire. That said, I once butchered a muntjac with a deformed leg and eventually pulled a fragmented .22LR bullet out of it's knee (probably shot by poachers, given where it came from). The bone had calloused over part of the bullet and the deer had clearly survived for some years since being shot (until it was later shot and killed the week I bought it). They certainly are hardy b*ggers so I'd always err on the side of "more gun"!

 

Noted about H414. Never used it myself, but out of curiosity, is it spherical?

 

Having said that I am sure there is a phsycologicle aspect to this! Know such high pressures are involved it can scare us!

Be assured, you are not going to subject that rifle to anything dangerous with any published load from a reputable powder or bullet manufacturer!

 

Agreed, to an extent. Psychological, yes - no-one wants to feel they're a trigger pull away from putting their rifle's bolt through their face, but I can't go as far as published data being 100% ok. There are such things as tight-chambered rifles; there are funny batches of powder and brass; there are very occasionally mistakes in the data.

 

Its ironic that you mentioned a 110gr .308 load - that's a load with which I have never been able to get to the published maximum. I use H335 for my version of that round and get to about 2 grains off the max when I start getting heavy bolt lift and brass flow into the extractor. There's also a .308 load published on the Alliant website for a 150gr SP that suggests one should be able to load 49gr of RL15 into the case for 2900fps - I can't even compress that amount of powder and still get the bullet in the case - I use 46.5gr for my "workhorse" load and that's as much as I can get in (also compressed) and still seat the bullet. Is the reference to "49gr" a mistake in the data? Perhaps.

 

I think I wasn't looking to disagree with you particularly - you've clearly been doing this longer than I have - but I did feel that you weren't stressing that there can be exceptions to every rule - even those that seem to indicate increased safety rather than danger. I don't want Mick to disappear off, re-try that published maximum and blow himself or his rifle up and I'm sure he won't if he tries, but the signs he's seeing can mean high pressure (particularly if he is, as he says, FL-resizing the cases) and if he just happens to have well-used brass, in combination with a hot batch of powder and a chamber on the tight end of the CIP range, that could be a recipe for low charges producing high pressure. Again, I'm not saying it is, but it would be reckless to discount the possibility.

 

My only other thought is that the Sierra data, which matches what Mick's seeing, was substantially more conservative than all the rest (i.e. I don't think it even crossed over with the other ranges published) and we haven't really worked out / talked about why that might be yet.

Edited February 26, 2015 by neutron619

[mick miller]

As an aside, this highlights what everyone sensible espouses; that is that all loads should be worked up to rather than jumping in feet first with the maximum load, or even someplace in the middle.

 

I'm pretty sure my rifle has a tight chamber, last time at the range I ran out of .243 ammunition, we had been zeroing at 100 followed by dropping back to 200 then 300, one of the guys who runs the reloading courses came over and offered his neck sized 243 as a replacement stating that his Remmy had a very tight chamber so 'these should fit'. Needless to add that they didn't at all couldn't close the bolt. Not conclusive proof but certainly a pointer in that direction.

 

I'm on the 6 and 7th reload with the cases I'm using. I have a bunch of brand new brass that I'm saving for the n140 load development (I guess that should be FL sized before firing even if new?). But I feel that the fact that I'm getting nearly 400fps more than QL predicts for the same load with N150 (39.5gns) might suggest a tighter than normal chamber too?

Edited February 26, 2015 by mick miller

[Underdog]

Thanks gents.

 

Yes H414 is spherical.

 

I had a fallow buck once with a 22 in its neck all healed up nice. Mushroomed too.

 

U.

[neutron619]

I'm on the 6 and 7th reload with the cases I'm using. I have a bunch of brand new brass that I'm saving for the n140 load development (I guess that should be FL sized before firing even if new?). But I feel that the fact that I'm getting nearly 400fps more than QL predicts for the same load with N150 (39.5gns) might suggest a tighter than normal chamber too?

 

If it were me, I'd FL-size the new brass. It should be within factory spec already, but sizing it will make it consistent with your other brass (i.e. same die so same shape / volume). This will mean that when you've fired it once, then resize it, you won't have just worked up a ladder with cases of a different capacity.

 

I would think that your 400fps over QL is partly indicative of a tight chamber. I have found QL to be generally conservative so far, compared to real world experience, but I haven't worked up a lot of loads since I've had it, so my experience is again limited. It makes sense that QL would "over-estimate danger" - they don't want to be sued after all, in spite of all their disclaimers etc. - but I think it gives a reasonably good indication of when one should expect to start seeing the signs. Variations abound of course though.

 

Sorry if this has been asked already, but have you measured your cases' water capacity? I did mine when I got QL and it actually helped explain one or two things I was seeing (i.e. no pressure signs with a few of my hotter experimental loads) - turned out my brass (therefore my chamber) has slightly larger capacity than standard .308 when fired.

 

Yes H414 is spherical.

 

I had a fallow buck once with a 22 in its neck all healed up nice. Mushroomed too.

 

I might have guessed - always seems to be the spherical powders that are erratic. I have this trouble with H335 sometimes too.

 

As for the fallow buck, why the ******* can't use a proper gun is beyond me. They must know they're probably not going to kill it with a rimfire... so why shoot it!?

Edited February 26, 2015 by neutron619

[mick miller]

Case capacity 55.4gns.

 

That's with a primer in to the top of the neck, so that isn't useable case capacity as the bullet itself will take up some of that depending on seating depth.

Edited February 26, 2015 by mick miller

[neutron619]

Case capacity 55.4gns.

 

That's with a primer in to the top of the neck, so that isn't useable case capacity as the bullet itself will take up some of that depending on seating depth.

 

That's quite interesting actually - higher than the 52.8gr-54gr numbers I've seen published for nominal capacity. My .308 cases with the larger neck are only 56.7gr or so. I'm not sure what, if any, conclusion to draw from that observation though.

[Underdog]

The smoothest sphericals I have used are H110 and bl-c2. I have not tried them all but had issue with 335 also, a long time ago.

 

The water cap test was what old timers did to evaluate how they could push the performance across various runs of brass. They would make a chart for cross reference. It is important to remember these guys in the states shot a lot more than most of us put together. Dog towns on the grass lands and a huge target shooting fraternity. Wringing the Max out of their rifles all the time.

[Dougy]

Blimey Mick, did you buy the gun to shoot or are you just into reloading.

I though I was a little on the anal side but you've knocked spots off my OCD reloading.

 

 

Note to self; whatever you do DONT get Quick Load.

 

I am reading through all the posts though with interest, specially the pressure on your loads that seem to be well below max. I'm holding back on commenting as is out of my depth now.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Dougy

[malkiserow]

Case capacity 55.4gns.

 

That's with a primer in to the top of the neck, so that isn't useable case capacity as the bullet itself will take up some of that depending on seating depth.

 

Out of interest, I just checked my recently fired Hornady .243 brass. It comes out at 55.3 grains of water with fired federal 210 primers in. Not sure if this helps at all but is remarkably similar to yours.

 

Did you run your same numbers through other software to see what result they gave you?

 

I don't know enough to be helpful to you but when I was worried about some past pressure signs, I took my cases to someone (a well known riflesmith who does much reloading) .... who quickly gave a very thorough examination and feedback. I found it very valuable advice.

[mick miller]

I'm using Winchester brass.

 

Blimey Mick, did you buy the gun to shoot or are you just into reloading.

I though I was a little on the anal side but you've knocked spots off my OCD reloading.

 

I admit I like to know the in's and out's of a gnats backend when it comes to anything I do. In reality I was just double checking some data and musing why I was getting early over pressure loads when I was well within the known safe load limits.

 

In summation I have learnt the following:

 

• My pressure signs (case flowing into ejector pin), heavy bolt lift, increased recoil could be due to a tight chamber, erroneous case resizing (shoulders too far back).

• I can check the speed in fps of any loads to match it to load data and see if I'm in the ballpark cross referenced to the data I have.

• I can check the cases after firing to make sure they do not exceed .004

• I can use a case length gauge to check my resizing and ensure consistency

• No two rifles will tolerate the same load - what works for one may not work for the other

 

You have to remember that I couldn't get any factory ammo to group particularly well in my rifle, in making my own I have reversed that trend. I have a load that is safe, accurate, effective to fall back on. Everything else is just a bonus - and to some degree I am 'playing', I quite like the whole reloading process!

[Dougy]

I'm just going through a tough time trying to get a good load using 6.5 Amax for my 260, but I am giving up on the idea of using a bullet that I cannot get hold of, wearing a barrel out as i go. So i'm starting again before i ruin a barrel.

[Bewsher500]

A-Max are a twitchy bullet, if they show no signs of promise, look elsewhere because like you say, there is no point wasting your barrel.

 

really?

what makes you say that?

[Redgum]

I have read through some of the posts on this topic but not all so forgive me if I have missed a few things but I think reloading can become incredibly complicated for no reason. Don't know what rifle you are using Mick but if its a pretty standard hunting barrel then that will be a limit in itself, rifle twist and individual barrels can have an effect on pressure. I have only ever used Lee's modern reloading second edition for my loads in 243 and 308 and found it pretty good guidance, the top powders are usually the best in regard to case fill and pressure thus I use N160 for 243 and find it versatile enough to produce very accurate loads in 100gr and 85gr.Bullet overall length has been pretty near too. As for bullet seating depth, once I found what suited me best I measured the length using an old case with a saw cut in the neck, I keep the original bullet I measured it with and use these to set up the bullet seating die if that makes sense. I use 100gr for Roe and munty's as have found the bullet tends to do less meat damage than lighter ones, anything larger and then I use the 308. The topic of course is a very interesting one but the reason I add this post is that someone looking at starting reloading could read this and think, boy this sounds complicated when its not.

I'm sure if someone was loading for competition through a match barrel then microscopic variations in seating depth and powder could make the difference from being on the podium ,not for shooting deer and fox's through an 'off the shelf ' hunting barrel. In my experience, finding it hard to group a load has usually been something external to the chamber. I had found trying to find a good consistent load for my first new 243 impossible, that's until I realised it wasn't the loads, my second 243 ( which was a secondhand Tikka ) took twelve rnds ,4 sets of 3 to produce a 0.5inch group, same with the 308.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Redgum

[Bewsher500]

Because they have only worked satisfactorily in 20% of the guns i have tried them in and i laugh at all those quoted 0.001" seating tolerances on a bullet pouring out of multiple machines with a regular 0.010" variation in base-ogive-meplat length across a box. Any bullet that requires such jump tolerance to work is twitchy in my book.

 

Interesting

I have only ever found them accurate and on the basis that my 300Wm loads have a jump measured in millimetres rather than thou, they don't seem to mind a decent jump.

I measure from the tip as well just to annoy the micrometer owners...