jimmydean Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Well we found out about our airlines new procedure through the bbc news although a document has been printed on the subject. I can't wait to try it out: "hello Donna" "Hello Captain Lugton, I'm just here to make sure you don't go loco and murder us all. Anyway how are the wife and kids......" Another useless knee jerk reaction that is so common in today's society. Easy- Jet or Thomas Cook ? Agreed its hardly what might be needed in similar circumstances. Someone needs to think harder and preferably earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Well we found out about our airlines new procedure through the bbc news although a document has been printed on the subject. I can't wait to try it out: "hello Donna" "Hello Captain Lugton, I'm just here to make sure you don't go loco and murder us all. Anyway how are the wife and kids......" Another useless knee jerk reaction that is so common in today's society. But surely the pilot community opposition to ever increasing automation just took another blow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 What this person did was an act of unspeakable selfishness. Words fail me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 But surely the pilot community opposition to ever increasing automation just took another blow? Remember that the probable cause of the loss of the Air France jet in the South Atlantic was malfunction of the flight instrumentation - sensors upon which the autopilot will depend. Sadly, no system, human or machine, is infallible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Remember that the probable cause of the loss of the Air France jet in the South Atlantic was malfunction of the flight instrumentation - sensors upon which the autopilot will depend. Sadly, no system, human or machine, is infallible. Pitot tube icing, so lack of reliable air data means handover back to pilots. Who cocked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) But surely the pilot community opposition to ever increasing automation just took another blow? Complete automation is not going to come in any time soon as the technology might be there the reliability is certainly not. Already this year an A330 and an A321 were saved by their crews quick thinking. The A330 was in the far east and the A321 was coming out of Bilbao. On both aircraft the Angle of Attack sensors froze. They froze at such an angle that it triggered "Angle of Attack" protection which is a protection that cannot be over ruled by the crew in Normal Law (Airbus has 3 control Laws - Normal, Alternate and Direct). The crew were very technically competent and switched off two out of the three ADR's (Air Data Reference units) which triggered a down grade from Normal to Alternate Law thereby bypassing the protections and recovering normal flight. Had that been a fully automated flight then both aircraft would be in little pieces…. Try and auto land in a gale and you'll find the autopilot disconnecting itself and telling you that you are welcome to fly the aircraft….. Not going to happen anytime soon. Edit: the events might have been last year but you get the point…. Edited March 26, 2015 by Laird Lugton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Pitot tube icing, so lack of reliable air data means handover back to pilots. Who cocked up. Correct but the crews didn't cock up with the AOA icing. As a professional pilot I choose never to fly Air France. Check their safety record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 What this person did was an act of unspeakable selfishness. Words fail me. I think he is innocent until proven guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I agree that full automation won't happen anytime soon. Enough trouble certifying military RPAS for civil airspace let alone civil. But the baby steps will surely come from gradually increasing 'best endeavours' emergency systems even if only to low DALs and limited functionality. Probably three decades away, especially for convincing the travelling public. Safe as they are, issues with Airbus are internal politics and reluctance to admit design flaws (linked active sticks being one notable example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think he is innocent until proven guilty. Agreed. If there was a genuine problem then the guys name has been smeared. I think 'the officials' must be sure enough though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think he is innocent until proven guilty. Very true. I hope the sake of all the families and friends that there is an innocent explanation such as the F.O. becoming incapacitated and that the initial reports of the cockpit voice recorder are inaccurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Correct but the crews didn't cock up with the AOA icing. As a professional pilot I choose never to fly Air France. Check their safety record. People in my industry (avionics) say the same. Poor cockpit culture. 447 as a concrete example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I agree that full automation won't happen anytime soon. Enough trouble certifying military RPAS for civil airspace let alone civil. But the baby steps will surely come from gradually increasing 'best endeavours' emergency systems even if only to low DALs and limited functionality. Probably three decades away, especially for convincing the travelling public. Safe as they are, issues with Airbus are internal politics and reluctance to admit design flaws (linked active sticks being one notable example). I'll be retired by then I agree with you last sentence. Sad really when safety is meant to be the cornerstone of the industry but I think it goes back to French culture…... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Agreed. If there was a genuine problem then the guys name has been smeared. I think 'the officials' must be sure enough though. I don't know if it's standard practice for the BEA to release preliminary findings so quickly but I have been truly amazed at the speed of it all. I guess their hand was forced when it was leaked to the NYT and AP. However I would like to think there was a reasonable explanation for his actions. However denying the Captain entry isn't a good start…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I seem to recall reading about a similar incident about 30 years ago in one of our travel trade newspapers.This was a trans atlantic flight and the co pilot and fight engineer were chinning with some pals in first class, the pilot very briefly joined them ,leaving the flight deck unattended and the plane hit an air pocket, the door shut and couldn't be opened. It took the crew 4 hours to get into the flight deck with hatchetts I believe, and the plane went onto make a safe landing All the crew where fired and banned from commercial flying.The pilot in this present case was blameless I don't know what additional security measures will be involved but we as members of the public should never be told what they are for obvious reasons. RIP to the innocent victims. from Auntie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margun Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sad really when safety is meant to be the cornerstone of the industry but I think it goes back to French culture…... As with any business, money speaks. Especially when the recall programme would make the Toyota brake problems pocket change in comparison! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 As with any business, money speaks. Especially when the recall programme would make the Toyota brake problems pocket change in comparison! Having had professional dealings with Airbus Industries when I was working - At a reasonably high level within the airline business - I totally agree with this statement and also the previous one about the 'wrong' culture. I was very pleased to get right away from Toulouse. Not a good period of my working life. I always tried to be professional - Sadly others did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marki Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Having done 8 flights this week I can tell you that this incident appears to have had very little impact on the number of people flying with Lufthansa. There does seem to be consistent delays of around 15-20 minutes, which is unusual, but if anything they are actually busier with a couple of flights upgrading planes to accommodate more passengers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 There is a note on his personal file which suggests he should occasionally be "checked to see if he was ok" as he was subject to bouts of depression - more significant evidence has been found as well at his flat. Thoughts are with the relatives of those he murdered. If he had lived here and owned a firearm, you can bet he'd have lost it on doctors advice and quite right too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 There is a note on his personal file which suggests he should occasionally be "checked to see if he was ok" as he was subject to bouts of depression - more significant evidence has been found as well at his flat. Thoughts are with the relatives of those he murdered. If he had lived here and owned a firearm, you can bet he'd have lost it on doctors advice and quite right too. Indeed and with his poor parents too...he's just destroyed their lives. Unbelievable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lister22 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 turns out he had suicidal tendencies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 turns out he had suicidal tendencies Not at the time he got his girlfriend pregnant though. She's now expecting his child. I just hope she gives it another surname and lives miles away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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