BASC - Landowners - Shooting

[Mungler]

Now tell 'em all to **** off and leave you alone.

 

[deadeye ive]

I feel the cat is out of the bag and asking poor farmers to still allow free pest control is going to ignite some idea's that were'nt there before .

And at a glimpse into the not so distant futre These same farmers will no doubt at the BASC AGM ask how will I know these strangers with loads of money are proficient with a Firearm and Basc will say we 'll set up a Fox Lamping course providing certification on passing it as proof .(Just summising ,nothing more )

As a hobby shooter as it's called by a previous poster who's main type of land is arable with little opportunities for Pigeon shooting I have to say that most landowners won't differentiate between traditional game shoots and Fox and Rabbit control if there is a quick and easy buck to be made .

 

This will also sow seeds in minds of people who shoot and are'nt short of a bob or two that the possibility to BID for permission is no longer a tabboo subject and all above board.I know it go 's on now but again it's a fine line where a bidding war fueled by the farmer could be generated .

I feel that regions will differ and it'll be a huge mistake assuming what the feelings are in one area of the uk might not be the same here in staffs and I'm of the opinion David that maybe as marketing your the wrong man for the Job when it comes to keeping shooting of vermin guarenteed and FOC on Farms

 

I haven't got the answers other than don't fix what ain't broke !

 

As someone raised on a rough council estate and who has grafted for every penny can someone please explain to me what a poor farmer is

[markbivvy]

does anyone know how many basc members are in the upper earning bracket please.

[marco you missed another one]

Hi Gents,

 

Browning totally agree, its a bit of a risk to advertize your details , but its all part of the responsibility game as I said before.

 

Martincavie no words for you, its better if we put a stop to our discussion that I think its going out of contest.

 

Deadeye Ive has a very good point, at least not everybody agrees with the man from BASC(delmonte).

 

Cheers

Mark

[Dunkield]

As someone raised on a rough council estate and who has grafted for every penny can someone please explain to me what a poor farmer is

 

 

I know we all joke about subsidies etc Ive, but there are thousands of farmers being screwed by the government, supermarkets - you name it. A good many of them never make any money and fold on a regular basis (hence the development boom buyng old farm houses) and they have one of the highest suicide rates in any profession. It isn't all a bed of roses.

[deadeye ive]

I can only make statements like that from experience and my point being the interpretation of the word poor or in this case when has a family with a long tradition in farming living on cream for years suddenly finds skimmed milk ain't as nice it comes as a bit of a shock and something they can't cope with .

 

And going off track a bit more are we not screwed by the Government ,tax ,utilitie companies etc! all things we have no choice about ,it's the way of living here .

 

Anyway I was up at 4 30 and I'm getting a bit deep here .............gripe over

 

 

Ps talking in general and not at you personally Stuart so please don't take offence

[David BASC]

Mark,

 

By upper earnings bracket' what do you mean?

 

Please lets not make this a rich verses poor debate this is NOT what shooting is about surely? Where would such a debate get us do you think?

 

Or is this an attempted lead in to 'BASC only looks after the rich shooters' sort of statement....well that is not the case, as I have said before - all BASC members are equal- you pay a fee and you get your membership package - your demands and needs are catered for no matter what sort of shooting you do, and no mater how much you earn.

 

BASC members come from all walks of society, and all sorts of jobs. Just like the members who are on this forum!

 

Deadeye you make an interesting point about proficiency....would you let somone you did not know come onto your land with a gun and shoot? OK most farmers are familiar with shooting , lots of other land owners are not - so what is the solution do you think?

 

Compulsory testing- lets hope not! Voluntary testing- lots of you would be against that - stop shooting on some land......

 

David

[Hunter_zero]

Compulsory testing- lets hope not! Voluntary testing- lots of you would be against that - stop shooting on some land......

 

David

 

IMHO these "shooting qualifications" are a complete load of old cobblers!!

 

How can I say this? well I can because I have them!

 

I know a chap, who holds both a DSC1 & DSC2 and frankly his abilities are less than poor.

 

BUT he has the qualifications to prove competence.

 

With all due respect, of course the BASC, BDS, CPSA, CA and so on and so on want to push these qualification, after all they run the courses. I think a clear understanding is needed and this is no attack on the BASC. The BASC are a business, just like your local gun shop, or Spar or CO-OP. Promoting the business makes the business grow, expand and become richer.

 

My own belief is that shooting qualifications should be taken with a pinch of salt, if you want to hold them then fine take them BUT never let them become compulsory and never let anyone who is supposed to represent your shooting interests tell you other wise. There is no real quick way to judge a shooters competence other than actually spending some time shooting with him /her.

 

John

[deadeye ive]

I have to say David that the answer is developing a relationship with the Farmer first using a smaller calibre like an Airgun for example and building up trust that way which is what I did and it takes time .Then word of mouth can work in your favour by way of being recommended eleswhere or having this farm to fall back on for reference .What I'm saying is you look after it as other opportunities can sprout out from it so to speak .

 

This is how it has worked for most pest control shooters who mainly operate with rifles and i certainly can only think of 1 instance myself in 6 years where i have been approached about sorting a Fox problem out with my .223 and whereby the person is going on word of mouth .

 

It is rare i feel that with no back up or knowledge that any Landowner who know's rifles will let anyone out on their land first armed with fullbore but with certification and money changing hands then that could become a possibility .

The dangers of certification or part 1 for example is it does not take into account experience and from being totally unaware you could in 1 week pass a course and aquire a 22/250 as a first rifle and people like my self with several years experience could end up being sidelined .........Who would be the safer shot in that senario.

 

Like I said there is no easy answer other than how things have worked previously which includes looking after the farmer anyway .I just don't want to see good intentions taken the wrong way and bidding wars ignited as a result and to which there is a real danger .

 

I am a BASC Member and will continue to be and it's good to come onto forums like this and get views from a wide spectrum of shooters but one thing we all agree on here is it's very important to seperate tradional game and stalking from pest and vermin control .

The day I have to pay to protect a farmers sheep from foxes is the day I'm wrapping up .

[David BASC]

I think you have hit on a key point that has been stated before- you cannot over estinmate the value of the personal relationship between the shooter and the farmer.

 

I still believe - both from talking to members of this forum, farmers and game shooters , that there is the opportunity for us to share shooting, (game shooters and pigeon / fox shooters)

 

Testing is a moot point- many of us have passed a driving test- does that make us good drivers? No.

 

Passing a test simply means you have reached a certain standard - that is all.

 

BUT - you cannot drive acar on your own until you have passed the text.

 

Forrestry land often canot be stalked over unless you have DMQ1

 

Yes BASC will push courses- both ones with qualifications and ones without - because there is a demand for them.

 

David

[Cranfield]

Most shooters will have no objection to BASC offering courses, because they are able to choose to pay and attend, or not.

 

What shooters will not want is compulsory courses, or the BASC advising Landowners to only permit insured and trained shooters on their land.

Of course, that would be insured and trained by BASC.

 

When most of us are "interviewed" by Landowners regarding potential shooting, they will assess our demeanour, character, experience levels etc., albeit informally.

This has always happened.

As has been said before on here, getting to know your Farmer and (more importantly) letting him get to know you, is the most important aspect of getting any vermin shooting.

 

I have spoken to two Farmers about suggestions being made, that agreements should be drawn up regarding shooting rights, both said that they would not be happy about a formal arrangement.

Their concerns revolved around liabilities, obligations and tax.

They much preferred a "gentlemans agreement", this of course relies on all parties being "gentlemen".

[Suffolk shooter]

I have spoken to two Farmers about suggestions being made, that agreements should be drawn up regarding shooting rights, both said that they would not be happy about a formal arrangement.

Their concerns revolved around liabilities, obligations and tax.

They much preferred a "gentlemans agreement", this of course relies on all parties being "gentlemen".

 

Cranners,

 

That is exactly my experience. When I first started out I went armed with my Insurance detasils, copies of my SGC, a brief letter about my experience, membership of associations etc. etc. 9 times out of ten I got the answer, "I'm not interested in that son" and when it came to asking them to sign a shooting agreement letter which incorporated the fact that should I be stopped by anyone, it showed I was entitled to be there, well all bar one said they didn't want to do that. Why?? Because of liabilities, Tax, Insurance etc.

 

Your last line sums it all up gentleman are only gentleman when it suits them.

 

SS

[David BASC]

Insurance

If an uninsured shooter injured somone on a farmers land- the injured party can sue the farmer as well as the shooter. It is even more lilely that the farmer will be sued if the shooter is uninsured.

 

A farmer should check that the shooter is insured AND that the shooters insurance will also indenmnify them ( the farmer) in the event of a claim.

 

To fail to do so could leave the farmer wide open in the event of an incident. Point this out the the two farmers you have spoken to and then report back what they now say about insurance!

 

A formal shooting agreement

There is nothing in law that says a formal agreement has to involve money changing hands. A formal agreemnt will protect both farmer and shooter. If the farmer wants the shooter to control rabits then there must be an agreement in writing.

 

Tax

If you get an income from it then HMRC will probably say that tax is payable I agree - guidance on this is on the BASC web site.

 

To suggest that BASC is saying to farmers , or plans to say to farmers, that only BASC insurance or BASC corses are acceptable is daft and nothing short of scaremongering quite frankly- as I have said on this thread several times as you well know- there are many organisations that offer public liability insurance- pay your money and take your choice.

 

David

[markbivvy]

Yes BASC will push courses- both ones with qualifications and ones without - because there is a demand for them

 

could this be because the old bill are insisting on this before they will grant a c/f rifle.

 

is this an attempted lead in to 'BASC only looks after the rich shooters' sort of statement....well that is not the case, as I have said before - all BASC members are equal- you pay a fee and you get your membership package - your demands and needs are catered for no matter what sort of shooting you do, and no mater how much you earn.

when i was a member i got a form sent from your people , on it they wanted to know what car i had what my house value was, how much i earned,types of shooting etc.

i think every member recieved one. basc must have all this info on file some place. armed with this info its not hard for the people who look after the accounts to start working out where the biggest amount of money comes from,and where the accounts could be made better.

basc are no diffarent to other sellers. they need to make a profit, they have wages to pay, property to pay for. you keep banging on about being the best, but you have to be to keep the basc making money.

if something whent wrong and the basc folded what would happen to the shooters then.

 

all BASC members are equal

 

not so long ago basc fought a court case for a chap to get a pistol for deer stalking, would you know the cost of this. and could you please tell me the last time the basc took a case to court for a person who could not get a fac without a dmq/dsc.

its nice to get to air our views dave and i thank you for it, but the more i see of you on here working as hard as you arei cant help thinking something coming our way we wont like.

[MC]

Mark,

 

Almost everytime you open a magazine or newspaper one of those market research forms fall's out, if you don't want anyone to know your situation then don't fill them in. It is not the BASC pushing for them I am sure.

 

With regards to the Police wanting someone they don't know to have a qualification before they get a centrefire is no bad thing. I had to do 6months probation at a Rifle club to get my .22 for target shooting and then had to do an asessment to get a 7.62. And both of these are used on MOD approved ranges.

 

It is not particularly a good thing but I am afraid the way Health and safety is going and everyone is trying to cover their own **** then qualifications will come.

 

Just recently I sat an exam for a CSCS card for which they give you a book which has all the questions and answers in it. I got every question right without understanding what some of them meant. But if this means I can visit and work on building sites without too much grief then it is one of the hoops we have to jump through.

 

It is not David's fault and I think he has got a certain amount of balls to post on here. As I have previously said I believe the BASC do a lot for shooting and none of us will agree with it 100%

 

With regards to the BASC fighting in court to get someone a pistol for Deer dispatch then I am sure they had a good reason to argue the case, otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

 

I am also fairly sure that is quite a bit on the way that we as shooters will not like, unfortunately that is the way of the world.

[David BASC]

The police are not insiting on peolpe passing courses - nor can they as there isn othing to that effect in the firearms Act.

 

Yes we researched our membership - to better discover what products and services our members were likely to buy, what shooting our members took part in, what improvements they wanted in the magazine etc etc. This was about 5 years ago.

 

Not sure what you point is here - maybe you will advise.

 

Yes we took the pistol case- somtimes it is important to use a case to set legal precident!

 

Most cases we handel where members have been refused grant or renewal of FAC or SGC do not get to court- they are settled out of court. These cases are ongoing all the time.

 

Yes BASC needs an income ot carry on doing what we are - as you say - what would happen to shooting if BASC folded.

 

Nothing sinister is coming your way re testing I can assure you!

 

David

[markbivvy]

Nothing sinister is coming your way re testing I can assure you!

 

sorry Dave . i did not say re testing mate.

 

 

The police are not insiting on people passing courses.nor can they as there isn othing to that effect in the firearms Act.

 

 

i am sure a member on here helps out at a DC course and said this week that 40 % of people taking the course where made to for a c/f grant.i was told by my foe that if i asked for a 243 that his boss would insist i did dsc1.

firearms act is a joke, and needs bringing up to date, what if anything are the basc doing about this.

martin.

i dont fill em in mate.

and i am not against any sort of voluntary test at a reasonable cost.

It is not David's fault.

dont recall saying its anybodies fault.but if you are willing to let others

determine your destination without commenting on it then so be it.

i dont like what the government are doing to the country either. are you saying i have just to take it without comment. sorry but anyone who just pays there membership without thinking is not helping shooting at all.

[Cranfield]

I think the majority of the posts on this thread are quite positive and the ones that are inquisitorial, or even cynical, are well meant and honest.

 

We all appreciate David from the BASC responding as and when he does, which often clarifies things.

Its also fair that we all recognise that David represents the BASC here and no comments are aimed at him personally.

Before he posted we use to have a number of "Bash the BASC" threads, which never really got anyone anywhere.

[David BASC]

It is an issue that the police in some areas are demanding that the applicant has this that or the other qualification. It may well be force policy but it is NOT the law.

 

If anyone comes accross this sort of thing when applying for a SGC or FAC then let me know. (is this an issue for another thread?) I will need your name, the police authority and the name of the officer or civilien that is dealing with your case.

 

As far as an update of the Act goes- yes this is on the cards- the original act is a mess as it has been ammended so many times

 

Fortunately BASC has a very good relationship with ACPO and all firearms licensing departments so if members have a problem we can usualy sort this out with one 'phone call.

 

Ta

 

D

[deadeye ive]

I will need your name, the police authority and the name of the officer or civilien that is dealing with your case.

 

 

 

Fortunately BASC has a very good relationship with ACPO and all firearms licensing departments so if members have a problem we can usualy sort this out with one 'phone call.

 

Ta

 

D

 

I have my reservations about where BASC are going with this senario concerning shooting rights and payment but I speak from personal experience concerning the statement made above .

 

Their legal department and advice concerning such matters is second to none .

[Hunter_zero]

The police are not insiting on peolpe passing courses - nor can they as there isn othing to that effect in the firearms Act.

 

David

 

Then Sir, I would suggest you take a close look at the REAL world!

 

Not so long ago, I took up stalking. I was surprised to be told by my FLA that I would need to apply for a grant of a firearm to shoot deer. I had 'passed' land in place with a five year lease for sole shooting rights. I ALREADY owned and used a .243" for fox control, yet it was no go with the deer unless I either held a DSC1 or had an experienced deer stalker to act as a mentor.

 

Firearm act, legal, not legal or anything else it matters not, that was the rule from my FLA and their request.

 

In reality, I was shooting fox on the same land as the deer. If I spotted a Roe and a Fox side by side, I could only have shot the fox and not the deer. Should my mentor have been with me, I could have shot both, should he have been taking a p!$$, I could only have shot a fox. Crazy, hey? the real world matey.

 

John

[David BASC]

John,

 

Thank you for that.

 

I do live and work in the real world I can assure you!

 

In the post you refer to I was answering a point that Mark had raised, that BASC was only creating courses due to police demand. This is not the case.

 

If you look at my last post I make the very point that the police will ask in some cases for qualifications - but it is not the law.

 

Sorry for any confusion. I accept that the way i wrote the post was not clear - and thank you for giving me the opportunity to clear this up.

 

As I said - if this is happening let me know iwth the detials.

 

But again - is this another topic? (it has nothing to do with the origibnal thread about BASC and the work we do with NFU and Farmers)

 

Training / courses, etc is an issue in some areas for FAC- as we do not use FAC guns for pigeon control as a rule is this a valid topic on this thread? Are you guys having the same issue with SGC?

 

As far as pigeon course - we ran one recently in our Northern Region and is was sold out within 2 weeks.

 

At the risk of being hung drawn & quatered, I would like ot know what your views are on training courses (voluntary ones) and what content you would like in them. However, IF there is sufficient interest in this topic may i suggest a new thread?

 

Thanks

 

David

[Hunter_zero]

John,

 

 

In the post you refer to I was answering a point that Mark had raised, that BASC was only creating courses due to police demand. This is not the case.

Training / courses, etc is an issue in some areas for FAC- as we do not use FAC guns for pigeon control as a rule is this a valid topic on this thread? Are you guys having the same issue with SGC?

 

Thanks

 

David

 

First, the Police will demand 'anything' that either make life harder to obtain a SGC or a FAC, that's life and in some respects I can sympathise with their attitude.

Second, "we do not use FAC guns for pigeon control" or course 'we' do! FAC rated airguns ? FAC shotguns (high capacity mags)? .222 cf rifles? .223cf rifles? .22-250cf rifles? .22H ? the list goes on.

 

This is my point in a nut shell. If you are going to hold courses on such subjects, then at least do you research and then consider the after effects of such courses on the shooting community. I can appreciate courses give good revenue to the BASC (or would deny that?) and I can understand that the BASC is after all a business (or would you also deny that?) but the long term effects of misjudgment can cause serious problems for future shooters.

 

John

[David BASC]

John,

 

Im my experience accross the UK I would not say the poice will do everything ot make getting a SGC difficult - that is simply NOT the case.

 

Yes - as said - in some areas the police are putting in their own 'rules' with regard to FAC - and as I now say for the third time - give me specific details - including the poilce authority involved.

 

22.250 for pigeonm shooting? Wow how popular is that?I hope that all who use the CF rifles for shooting pigeons do so from a VERY safe position - would love to hear details of that. Could make an interesting article for Shooting & Conservation. Out of interest how many of you have an FAC for a CF rifle that lists pigeon shooting as the or one of the reasons for owning that calibre?

 

Courses:

The pigeon course we ran was with John Batley and was concentrating on hide building and positionig of decoys - nothing the police would have interest in I am sure

We run wildfowling courses- again nothing the police would be interested in.

We run Young shots days- nothing the police would be interrested in.

We run gundog courses - again no police interest

I could go on but for a list of courses ans events take a look at the BASC web site.

 

You say we (BASC) shoud do the research first- well what do you think I am asking for?

 

Most courses run at a break even point. Yes BASC has to be run as a business- of course it does- it would be wrong of us not to do so would it not?

 

Do you think compulsory testing is on the way? Many countries have thiss - is it a good thing or a bad thing? Again I think this is a topic for another thread.

 

By the way BASC has NEVER gone for compulsory testing !

 

David

[Hunter_zero]

Out of interest how many of you have an FAC for a CF rifle that lists pigeon shooting as the or one of the reasons for owning that calibre?

 

Do you think compulsory testing is on the way? Many countries have thiss - is it a good thing or a bad thing? Again I think this is a topic for another thread.

 

David

 

Out of interest I would suggest you ask 'how many of you have an FAC for a CF rifle that lists vermin control as the only reason for owning that calibre?'.

 

Compulsory testing? IMHO the more voluntary courses (recognised by the police) ( I doubt pigeon hide building would have a great impact with the police) the quicker compulsory testing will become law.

 

John