copper shot

[demonwolf444]

Reading through some non toxic post questions and people keep mentioning pure copper shot.

 

I realize there are loads of threads on it but i cant find any saying where i can buy copper shot for reloading.

 

First off who has used it and what do they think.

 

Second off where can i purchase some for some experimenting with?

 

Kind regards,

 

James.

 

Edit : Just found http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_191&products_id=2406

 

if anyone knows of any in the UK that might be better.

Edited August 16, 2016 by demonwolf444

[TONY R]

Reading through some non toxic post questions and people keep mentioning pure copper shot.

 

I realize there are loads of threads on it but i cant find any saying where i can buy copper shot for reloading.

 

First off who has used it and what do they think.

 

Second off where can i purchase some for some experimenting with?

 

Kind regards,

 

James.

 

Edit : Just found http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_191&products_id=2406

 

if anyone knows of any in the UK that might be better.

No there was a way of getting it out of Germany ex rotweil but that dried up, thats the only practical sourse at the moment i know of.

3.5mm which is 2s is ok i like using it, used it last season and i thought it worked well you can send it fast like steel i had 32 gram doing 1600fps at safe pressures and it patterned fine. Get some have a play with it i dont think you will be disapointed good thing is you can use it in anything old english doubles damascus i suitable loads.

Edited August 16, 2016 by TONY R

[demonwolf444]

Tony that's exactly why I want to experiment, I want to see if I can make a black powder non toxic load, a 2.5kg tub should be enough to experiment with. will look at how it patterns and performs in muzzle loaders, in a black powder cartridge and if I get a modern reloading press I might test some other rounds, cheers for sharing your experience !

[Guest cookoff013]

i should be testing some copper before christmas.

[demonwolf444]

will you be posting results on PW? copper shot could be the way forward for me as it would be suitable in my old guns, not too expensive and if i can reload it that would be awesome. Cant wait to look into it.

[TONY R]

Ill Pm you the Details of an A steel ..copper load i used last season 32 gram @1600FPS .. its a 76MM gordon case but you could RTO the same load in a 70MM with a frangible disk, but you loose a few% on the pattern.

Its loud but its lowest recoil i ever encountered in a 32 gram load at this FPS. I shot it in my 26 inch NO 4 aya no problem.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TONY R

[pestcontrol1]

Ill Pm you the Details of an A steel ..copper load i used last season 32 gram @1600FPS .. its a 76MM gordon case but you could RTO the same load in a 70MM with a frangible disk, but you loose a few% on the pattern.

Its loud but its lowest recoil i ever encountered in a 32 gram load at this FPS. I shot it in my 26 inch NO 4 aya no problem.

Tony have you bought any Gordons 3" lately i am after some but only place i could find them was siarm

[TONY R]

Tony have you bought any Gordons 3" lately i am after some but only place i could find them was siarm

I got several thousand off Ian charlton when he had them very cheap must have been a decade or more ago, i still got a thousand or so lift, the ones i have are the black ones, i had a few hundred clear ones off him before these.

You tried John Morrish .?

For 70MM i use Blue diamonds i pick up from a few mate who still shoot a lot of clays they seem to find me plenty of them and wont take a penny off me for them.

Edited August 17, 2016 by TONY R

[pestcontrol1]

I got several thousand off Ian charlton when he had them very cheap must have been a decade or more ago, i still got a thousand or so lift, the ones i have are the black ones, i had a few hundred clear ones off him before these.

You tried John Morrish .?

For 70MM i use Blue diamonds i pick up from a few mate who still shoot a lot of clays they seem to find me plenty of them and wont take a penny off me for them.

Yer i have tried everywhere in the uk i think now lol. I pick up 70mm blue diamonds an black golds an reload them but it was more the 3" i bought a few of the black ones from c&g they said they had 1000s but when i went in the next time they had none left. I will have to have another ring around and see if i can find some or its siarm

[rbrowning2]

How does the copper shot stack-up compared to bismuth? It looks cheaper is that the main reason it is being used?

[TONY R]

Well as assembled shot copper is cheaper than anything elsenon tox apart from steel , Bismuth is cheaper but only in ingots, then you got the time and expense dropping it or moulding it.

Now on the spacific gravity front copper looks behind Bismuth but when you look at the real spacific gravity by the time bismuth has Tin mixed in it to make it Tougher aparently needed to help it stop breaking up never seen it break up myself i rate Bismuth always have. to all intents and purposes Bismuth and copper spacific gravity is roughly the same.

Claimed spacific gravity and the acctual figures are often quite different.

Copper is soft it has a DPH of around the mid 50s Vickers . about half again as soft as steel shot.

So its safe for barrels you can load it however you want, its hard so it can be driven fast and it creates less pressure than steel due to the fact its hard and heavier. You can if you want send copper at steel type speeds, 1750FPs is the fastest i have had it going, and its increased mass helps hold pattern at these speeds better than steel.

Its an all round good deal is copper in my experience, i like the fact you can use it in na game gun, load it just like lead buffer it it responds to bbuffering just like lead and for use on say a duck drive after a game shoot its perfect just like bismuth but cheaper.

Bismuth and copper are vertualy the same in the field but copper can be driven at faster speeds should you want to, and its far cheaper than Bismuth in shot form.

Edited August 18, 2016 by TONY R

[rbrowning2]

It is for a duck drive but our shoot is fibre wad only so I cannot and do not want to use steel. I have been buying bismuth in 12ga and taking the shot out to use in 28ga. A box or two does a season so not a big user but will look further at the copper shot.

[TONY R]

Copper works fine with fibre .

[rbrowning2]

I am finding that copper is poisonous to aquatic life, fish and copper shot is banned in at least one EU country, so is it sensible to use it over duck ponds? I wonder how much you would need to put in the water to poison any fish?

[greenergp]

If they tried to ban copper shot they would also have to ban copper antifouling paint for boats, there must be a much higher tonnage of copper in contact with water than a few guys doing a bit of shooting.

 

http://coppercoat.com/

[rbrowning2]

Thanks for that whilst it looks more for sea going vessels than an inland duck pond I would expect it is used on cannel boats etc so the argument is a good one.

I did think it would have to be super toxic to the fish for a few pellets to poison many thousands or millions of litres of water held in a reasonable size duck pond which must also be being purified I would think by the plant life within.

[TONY R]

Thanks for that whilst it looks more for sea going vessels than an inland duck pond I would expect it is used on cannel boats etc so the argument is a good one.

I did think it would have to be super toxic to the fish for a few pellets to poison many thousands or millions of litres of water held in a reasonable size duck pond which must also be being purified I would think by the plant life within.

Everytime you drink from your cold tap you will be getting some copper i would think. All i read is its maga toxic yet its everywhere, same with lead.

[neutron619]

Everytime you drink from your cold tap you will be getting some copper i would think. All i read is its maga toxic yet its everywhere, same with lead.

 

Humans, mammals and probably animals in general need a small quantity of copper to function correctly - blood and hormone formation, liver function and possibly muscle if memory serves, but I could be making that up. It "balances out" with Zinc in the blood - quantity is less important than proportion, to a point, I believe. Too much is poisonous, as with all things.

 

I vaguely recall that copper deficiency was an issue when most pipes were made of lead, but now that water supply pipes are generally made from copper, we get some of what we need from the tiny amounts that dissolve (very slowly) off the inside surfaces of the pipes. This is generally considered to beneficial I believe and deficiency in westerners is now unusual without an underlying cause.

 

Copper is also somewhat antiseptic and - helpfully in the case of water supplies - kills parasites and most other invertebrates. Copper sulphate and various other compounds are used to treat ponds for infestations of leeches, etc. and again, even where it isn't a deliberate medication, is generally held to be beneficial to the fish provided the overall concentration doesn't get too high.

 

Finally, for the older ones of you - cooking ware, surgical tools / containers and work surfaces which needed to be kept sterile (or as near as) used to be made primarily of copper. Bacteria do not like copper, in general, and although some species are tolerant, I seem to remember that most can't reproduce or spread on copper surfaces. Synthetic plastics have since become more common for this purpose, not least because of the bulk price of the metal increasing substantially as Chinese demand has soared, but I would think many of you will remember going through "bronze rooms" in hospital, or commercial kitchens, or the like.

 

So in general, more copper is not necessarily a bad thing, even in water. Greater surface area per unit mass submerged (i.e. many pellets, rather than sheet metal) may increase the concentration of copper ions in standing water, as might it's relative elctropositivity compared to hydrogen (??) but I think I'd be a lot more worried about the dangers of other non-toxics (i.e. Tungsten - very unpleasant stuff in my opinion and I often wonder if people have considered the consequences of leaving it lying around) before I'd be worried about Copper (or, for that matter, Lead, but I can't back that up).

Edited August 22, 2016 by neutron619

[demonwolf444]

Will delicately be trying copper shot this year. Will run some tests and pattern plates; Thanks guys

[islandgun]

 

Humans, mammals and probably animals in general need a small quantity of copper to function correctly - blood and hormone formation, liver function and possibly muscle if memory serves, but I could be making that up. It "balances out" with Zinc in the blood - quantity is less important than proportion, to a point, I believe. Too much is poisonous, as with all things.

 

I vaguely recall that copper deficiency was an issue when most pipes were made of lead, but now that water supply pipes are generally made from copper, we get some of what we need from the tiny amounts that dissolve (very slowly) off the inside surfaces of the pipes. This is generally considered to beneficial I believe and deficiency in westerners is now unusual without an underlying cause.

 

Copper is also somewhat antiseptic and - helpfully in the case of water supplies - kills parasites and most other invertebrates. Copper sulphate and various other compounds are used to treat ponds for infestations of leeches, etc. and again, even where it isn't a deliberate medication, is generally held to be beneficial to the fish provided the overall concentration doesn't get too high.

 

Finally, for the older ones of you - cooking ware, surgical tools / containers and work surfaces which needed to be kept sterile (or as near as) used to be made primarily of copper. Bacteria do not like copper, in general, and although some species are tolerant, I seem to remember that most can't reproduce or spread on copper surfaces. Synthetic plastics have since become more common for this purpose, not least because of the bulk price of the metal increasing substantially as Chinese demand has soared, but I would think many of you will remember going through "bronze rooms" in hospital, or commercial kitchens, or the like.

 

So in general, more copper is not necessarily a bad thing, even in water. Greater surface area per unit mass submerged (i.e. many pellets, rather than sheet metal) may increase the concentration of copper ions in standing water, as might it's relative elctropositivity compared to hydrogen (??) but I think I'd be a lot more worried about the dangers of other non-toxics (i.e. Tungsten - very unpleasant stuff in my opinion and I often wonder if people have considered the consequences of leaving it lying around) before I'd be worried about Copper (or, for that matter, Lead, but I can't back that up).

 

 

terrific post