Hammer Guns and Antique Guns.

[ChrisPCarter]

Personally, I wouldn't buy a gun only in BP proof (except as a wall hanger) - too much hassle. You could ask the seller (if he is so confident it will pass) to have it Nitro proofed at a pre-agreed price conditional on passing nitro proof (in other words, you pay costs if it passes - he carries the risk that it doesn't)

 

I have heard that the proof of older guns has become a lot more strict recently and the failure rate has been higher as a consequence, though how many of these failures are at 'viewing' as opposed to catastrophic failures I can't say.

 

This sounds like an option I might suggest, though the stock has had an extension fitted so I'm not sure it is going to be worth it as the end result isn't going to be perfect so I might just let it go and find something better.

The guy in the shop did say they have become much more strict and it might not have been nitro proofed if the previous owner didn't see the need and was happy firing BP.

I'm always wary of advice from people selling things, though they do seem very honest and genuine from previous experience and he certainly knows his stuff on the older guns.

[ChrisAsh]

Try getting the barrels measured for thickness thats the first thing and should not cost much just time to do it

[demonwolf444]

If you get in from shooting your black powder gun, if the gun has clean bright bores just standing the barrels in a basin of cold water and flushing them through with the cold water using a wool mop on a rod to draw the water up and down will flush the fouling from the barrels and leave clean bright bores, patch dry and then spray with napier gun cleaner, been doing this for a year and the bores have not degraded in any way.

 

On barrels with pitting i prefer to be a bit more thorough to try and scrub all the fouling out of the barrels using fairy and hot water, then patching and oiling - which is more tedious.

 

If you are going to leave the gun over night prior to cleaning - spray with some gun cleaner which will keep the fouling soft, if you keep it topped up it usually will be okay for a day or two.

 

If you don't clean the gun at all you can very quickly turn barrels into Victorian drain pipes.

[ChrisPCarter]

Try getting the barrels measured for thickness thats the first thing and should not cost much just time to do it

They showed me the barrel measurements on a gauge in the shop and they are about 40 in both.

[JohnfromUK]

They showed me the barrel measurements on a gauge in the shop and they are about 40 in both.

If the MINIMUM wall thickness is 40 thou, that is thick; on six guns I own for which I have this measured, 40 thou is the thickest I have. I find it somewhat odd that if it has had to be reproofed due to bores being enlarged due to lapping/fine boring, it was (presumably) even thicker once - though perhaps it was reproofed for other reasons.

Often, London best guns are a little on the thin side in the walls when new (to give the fine fast handling for which they are noted). I note that of the guns for which I have recorded wall thicknesses - a William Powell hammer on Damascus and well in (Nitro) proof is 25 thou minimum - and a later steel barrelled William Powell lightweight that has been lapped, but is still in (original) proof is down to 22 thou

My 1970s AyAs are 24 thou on one gun and 30 thou on another. Both in original Spanish proof.

[ChrisPCarter]

If the MINIMUM wall thickness is 40 thou, that is thick; on six guns I own for which I have this measured, 40 thou is the thickest I have. I find it somewhat odd that if it has had to be reproofed due to bores being enlarged due to lapping/fine boring, it was (presumably) even thicker once - though perhaps it was reproofed for other reasons.

Often, London best guns are a little on the thin side in the walls when new (to give the fine fast handling for which they are noted). I note that of the guns for which I have recorded wall thicknesses - a William Powell hammer on Damascus and well in (Nitro) proof is 25 thou minimum - and a later steel barrelled William Powell lightweight that has been lapped, but is still in (original) proof is down to 22 thou

My 1970s AyAs are 24 thou on one gun and 30 thou on another. Both in original Spanish proof.

Yes well I think his words were that the barrels are very thick at 40 thou and this is why he couldn't understand why the gun had been reproofed for BP. I think he said they would have originally been about 50 thou but I could be wrong on that. The rest of the gun seems in excellent condition, unmarked barrels inside and out etc. I've just seen a similar gun today costing nearly 3 times the price on which the finish looks a bit more worn, though it has nicer wood and has never been cut down.

In some ways the gun seems a bargain because of the proof and stock extension but I don't know if it's a can of worms.

He said personally he would have no worries shooting nitro in it and wouldn't bother getting it reproofed until it was needed again.

He's either very confident in his inspection or not scared about blowing himself up! He certainly seemed to know his stuff on a range of old guns he had in stock.

[demonwolf444]

Yes well I think his words were that the barrels are very thick at 40 thou and this is why he couldn't understand why the gun had been reproofed for BP. I think he said they would have originally been about 50 thou but I could be wrong on that. The rest of the gun seems in excellent condition, unmarked barrels inside and out etc. I've just seen a similar gun today costing nearly 3 times the price on which the finish looks a bit more worn, though it has nicer wood and has never been cut down.

In some ways the gun seems a bargain because of the proof and stock extension but I don't know if it's a can of worms.

He said personally he would have no worries shooting nitro in it and wouldn't bother getting it reproofed until it was needed again.

He's either very confident in his inspection or not scared about blowing himself up! He certainly seemed to know his stuff on a range of old guns he had in stock.

40 thou minimum is very very thick for an old gun - Sleeved guns i have are about 25 thou thick minimum and apparently that's not far off what the sleeving blanks come in at, i have some that are just below the recommended 20 thou thick, dropping off to something like 18 or 19 ( i forget ) where previous repairs have been carried out in the past, its nothing to be concerned about.

 

Greener in his book "the gun and its development" which is available free on line, i think took a pair of barrels down to 5 thou thick and were OK.

 

Problem with thin barrels is they are not forgiving, if you knock a thin set of barrels against your car door or whatever its far more likely they will dent, and when they do its quite likely to be un repairable as you have very little metal to work with.

 

See all sorts at the gun room, saw a hammer gun with perfect barrels, right up to a point where they had been dented and continued to be shot until the barrels were paper thin, the "fix" was a piece of sheet metal brazed over..i wonder how long the gun was shot like that! it was 2nd of a pair, and with hammer gun prices on their **** its likely the gun will be scrapped rather than rebarreled or sleeved.

 

Barrel thickness only tells half the story, some guns in the past were ordered to weight and the only way to achieve the customers desired weight of gun would be thinning the barrels off.

 

Always check an old gun for proof - it may make no difference as to weather the gun is safe or not but it does make a difference to value.

[JohnfromUK]

40 thou minimum is very very thick for an old gun - Sleeved guns i have are about 25 thou thick minimum and apparently that's not far off what the sleeving blanks come in at, i have some that are just below the recommended 20 thou thick, dropping off to something like 18 or 19 ( i forget ) where previous repairs have been carried out in the past, its nothing to be concerned about.

 

Greener in his book "the gun and its development" which is available free on line, i think took a pair of barrels down to 5 thou thick and were OK.

 

Problem with thin barrels is they are not forgiving, if you knock a thin set of barrels against your car door or whatever its far more likely they will dent, and when they do its quite likely to be un repairable as you have very little metal to work with.

 

See all sorts at the gun room, saw a hammer gun with perfect barrels, right up to a point where they had been dented and continued to be shot until the barrels were paper thin, the "fix" was a piece of sheet metal brazed over..i wonder how long the gun was shot like that! it was 2nd of a pair, and with hammer gun prices on their **** its likely the gun will be scrapped rather than rebarreled or sleeved.

 

Barrel thickness only tells half the story, some guns in the past were ordered to weight and the only way to achieve the customers desired weight of gun would be thinning the barrels off.

 

Always check an old gun for proof - it may make no difference as to weather the gun is safe or not but it does make a difference to value.

 

All of the above is good advice - thin barrels are so easily dented - and so many English guns started life quite thin to get the outstanding balance and handling for which best English (and Scottish) are famous.

[Evilv]

A very interesting thread here. Just one comment - I am amazed that any 'reputable' gun trader would suggest a buyer would be OK to run nitro cartridges through a black powder proofed gun. As someone else said up above, it isn't just barrel thickness that counts. I'd walk out of a shop where that kind of advice was given and never go back. Just my six pennyworth.

 

Loved that rack of guns up above. Some very fine history there.

[ChrisPCarter]

A very interesting thread here. Just one comment - I am amazed that any 'reputable' gun trader would suggest a buyer would be OK to run nitro cartridges through a black powder proofed gun. As someone else said up above, it isn't just barrel thickness that counts. I'd walk out of a shop where that kind of advice was given and never go back. Just my six pennyworth.

 

Loved that rack of guns up above. Some very fine history there.

I was of the same opinion at first but the guy was clearly very knowledgeable about the history of these old guns and he came very highly recommended. I spent a good couple of hours there chatting about them. I bought that hammer guns book and reading through that there's nothing he told me hat hasn't been confirmed. I think he was just emphasising his confidence in the gun and having a bit of sense myself I would have had it reproofed in any event.

It really was a lovely gun but after a lot of thought I decided against it purely on the fact the stock had previously been cut down and that reproofing it would have further costs and potentially could be a can of worms and end in a failed gun and wasted money. I know I'd have forever been looking for another one with a better stock even if it passed proof.

I've now seen an older Lang underlever gun (at more than twice the price) that I'm going to take a look at early next week.

[JohnfromUK]

I have had a Lang (push forward) underlever; they are nice guns. Mine was a 30" Damascus - in lovely condition, though probably restocked. I part exchanged it in the end because it didn't fit me well - and advice was that the 'bending' needed would be quite high risk. A lot of the stock is cut away internally to accommodate the trigger plate action, and this can make any except small fit changes tricky. Mine was Nitro proof, (a reproof from original black powder) and it was done before I acquired it. I have heard that the bar of the action can be a weak point on this design, but have no personal evidence for that. Mine was made in 1882.

[ChrisPCarter]

I'd like to get this one dated properly and find out a bit more about it. Is this possible from a serial number or is it just a rough guess based on the action type etc?

[JohnfromUK]

When I had mine, I wrote to Atkin, Grant and Lang - and had a letter with a copy of the ledger entry in return. I don't have the record now as it went to the buyer when I parted with the gun. The name and business is now owned by Francis Lovell I believe and is still operating. I believe that they will give you a basic date 'for free', but make a small charge for detailed records (which seems fair as these things all take time). Google "Atkin, Grant and Lang" and drop them an email.

[kevin55]

You can get a year of manufacture from the AGL book - sitting on my shelf now

 

I'm up there this Thursday but as of last week they were just putting the Lang records onto a new computer system

If you're in the gun shop there you can generally just ask for the details, giving your serial number and take a photo of them

They are very helpful

 

It's the old Broomhills Shooting Ground off the A5 from Junction 9 of the M1 and yes as above now owned by Francis Lovell

 

K