Oly Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Oly have you ever shot a hmr ? love me 22 r/f but the hmr will outshoot it ever time at 100 yrds Yes have shot one, but I can still outshoot it with my heavy barrel anschutz .22lr at 100 yds I agree with Lazza though, I too prefer a centrefire for foxes really, but have no quarms with the .22lr for foxes within range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulkyuk Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Don't try to "think outside the box"...realise that there is no box!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Don't try to "think outside the box"...realise that there is no box!! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tikkamark Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Oly have you ever shot a hmr ? love me 22 r/f but the hmr will outshoot it ever time at 100 yrds Yes have shot one, but I can still outshoot it with my heavy barrel anschutz .22lr at 100 yds B) I agree with Lazza though, I too prefer a centrefire for foxes really, but have no quarms with the .22lr for foxes within range. the 17hmr is a truely outstanding little round so flat shooting and easy to use without worrying about holdover the whole time I cant see why price of the rounds would put anyone off buying one.In ireland hornady .17hmr varmint express are €12 a box you can barely get 2 pints for that these days yet you can get 50 bullets capable of killing small vermin out to about 170yrds.I dont know if the 17mach2 will be here to stay but the hummer will be without a doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Oly have you ever shot a hmr ? love me 22 r/f but the hmr will outshoot it ever time at 100 yrds Yes have shot one, but I can still outshoot it with my heavy barrel anschutz .22lr at 100 yds I agree with Lazza though, I too prefer a centrefire for foxes really, but have no quarms with the .22lr for foxes within range. at 100 yards there is no comparison with put down power, the HMR will kill far cleaner than the .22lr it has a huge amount more energy behind it and transfers it far better especially with the ballistic tipped amunition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Just had the flo round discussing a variation. I asked him about this topic and he said that he would accept .22lr for occasional fox but not .17hmr. I know this opinon differs in other areas but this is the second flo from another force - both have said the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I wish I'd not asked now. Im even more confused after reading the last 2 pages basically you have options of the Quad the Annie and the CZ and depending on your budget if you've plenty to spend buy the annie. If not then you have to decide if you like your toys in which case buy the quad, if not and you just want a gun that you can shoot with then buy the CZ any of them will do the job well its just the CZ you get to learn a bit more with as you do need to play about to make them shoot really well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaggyRS6 Posted June 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I wish I'd not asked now. Im even more confused after reading the last 2 pages basically you have options of the Quad the Annie and the CZ and depending on your budget if you've plenty to spend buy the annie. If not then you have to decide if you like your toys in which case buy the quad, if not and you just want a gun that you can shoot with then buy the CZ any of them will do the job well its just the CZ you get to learn a bit more with as you do need to play about to make them shoot really well Well I have my Berreta up for Sale. So I guess I will rplace that with an Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I wish I'd not asked now. Im even more confused after reading the last 2 pages I hope to pick up some .17hmr ammo today - all out right now so a bit of an emergency If you want for try an agricultural CZ452 in the field - at targets (I need to check the zero with the new ammo) over the next few days pm me and we can sort something out. Nothing beats first hand experience. Cheers AndyCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Just had the flo round discussing a variation. I asked him about this topic and he said that he would accept .22lr for occasional fox but not .17hmr. I know this opinon differs in other areas but this is the second flo from another force - both have said the same thing. To be honest they just follow trends, the hmr is a much more capable foxing round than the .22lr. Stick the 20grn hollow points :- .17hmr 20grn will have about 9ft/lb per grain @70yds 180ft/lbs .22hv 40grain will have about 2.8ft/lb per grain @70yds 112ft/lbs Its all about speed, I know which I would be using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Pin try the 20's if you like but on 1st hand experience the ballistic tips in my experience work better. 20's seem to penetrate very well a bit too well for my liking. 17's penetrate well and then deform like mad causing large amounts of damage. Compare them on rabbits where the ballistic tip nearly always kills on the spot get it slightly wrond with the hollow point and they just go straight through. A test I did which is quite nice is get three sheets of inch thick ply space them apart from each other with some battening and at 100 yards the ballistic tip will go through all 3, which to me shows they don't explode on impact as some would have you believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Oh indeed, I agree. I have not found a HP my rifle likes yet, only tried 2 of them and will try more. I would have thought the HP's would be better for fox, bit more penetration. Just a theory, never shot one with either Personally I only use the poly 17grn ammo, only tried 2 boxes of the HP's and my rifle didn't seem to like either. I will try them again, I think they might be better for fox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Oh indeed, I agree. I have not found a HP my rifle likes yet, only tried 2 of them and will try more. I would have thought the HP's would be better for fox, bit more penetration. Just a theory, never shot one with either Personally I only use the poly 17grn ammo, only tried 2 boxes of the HP's and my rifle didn't seem to like either. I will try them again, I think they might be better for fox. I prefer the 17g CCI TNT's for fox, more penetration, but also prefer a headshot if possible. Cheers AndyCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Are those like the federal ones, TNT being an HP round? (but 17g) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Are those like the federal ones, TNT being an HP round? (but 17g) ? - thread hijack complete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Should know better. Its kind of on topic, ish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Should know better. Its kind of on topic, ish Yep, scopes now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oly Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 So I guess I will rplace that with an Annie You won't regret it! Pin, I would say it's energy rather than speed...and it's the amount of energy distributed to the animal that kills it, not speed. Hence I like the CCI Velocitors, which have very comparable energy figures to that of the 17HMR rounds, it's just how that energy is trasferred to it's target that's the question IMO. It could be argued that as the .22lr has a greater surface area and volume that it would transfer the energy better to it's target...but the HMR does have slightly more energy in the first place...either way it's close. Never met a FLO yet though that talks about trends...the ones I have dealt with in Cumbria and todays fom West Mercia certainly know their ballistics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Pin, I would say it's energy rather than speed... The speed comment I should have explained. For a given mass of projectile, doubling the speed quadruples the energy. It follows that doubling the mass only doubles the energy, therefore "it's all about speed". Clearly some FLO's will know their ballistics, just as some won't. If you look at the numbers there should be no argument allowing .17 for <100 yds occasional fox. It isn't a dedicated foxing round and I am not saying it is, but its more than capable of holding its own against a .22rf for that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 having used both the .22 for me is too loopy a round particularly with subsonics to be going any where near 100 yard shots at foxes. The .17 will hit exactly where you point it at and far harder so to me I'd question if your FLO actually does know his ballistics that well as on paper if they accept .22lr then they definitely should accept the hmr. OK not as a dedicated fox gun but as one for the occasional fox while out rabbiting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_HMR Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Theres not much of an argument really on paper the .17hmr will beat the .22lr everytime in all aspects however the .22lr will always have its place as the most popular rimfire due to it being so cheap and widly available and it being able to moderate so well. A .17 17gr v-max runs at 2600fps and has 245lbs/ft at the muzzle and 136lbs/ft at 100yards with a 20gr HP that goes up to 250lbs/ft at muzzle and 140lbs/ft at 100yards A .22lr CCI velociter has a MV of 1425fps and KE of 183 at the muzzle and 117 at 100yards The main thing with the .17 is that its so accurate you can buy savage's and marlins for small money that will shoot every bit as good as the high end anshutz and coopers all factory guns will shoot sub moa and i mean all you will get the odd one that wont but thats not something alot of other calibres can say. And everyone will agree that what makes a kill is putting the bullet in the right place the .17 makes that that good bit easier being so accurate and can do it at range due to the flat shooting. Over a distance of 125 yards the bullet only rises and inch and a half either side of the point of aim where the .22lr will drop 9 or 10 inches in some cases. People have consitantly taking rabbits at 250yards ++ it is very easily silenced with a SAK for very little money. It has a huge amount going for it. It has been labeled as the mini centrefire and rightly so and gives new people to the sport a great way to get into long distance shooting and foxing without the hassle and security issues of a centrefire. One thing that really does it for me is the issue of ricochets i can take every shot with confidence knowing that it will explode on impacting anything it allows for alot more shots where with the 22 you have the nagging in the back of your head what if. Will it be around in 10years i have no doubt about it because mine will not be going anywhere as im sure others will say the same on here. This is not a .22lr slagging post i'm in the process of licesing one myself and im sure i will like it and use it every bit as much as my 17 but will me used more for target/plinking due to the cost of ammo but the .17 is my pure hunting tool and lives up to that task spectacularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Theres not much of an argument really on paper the .17hmr will beat the .22lr everytime in all aspects however the .22lr will always have its place as the most popular rimfire due to it being so cheap and widly available. Not every aspect. Add subs, good moderator and you have yourself the undisputed silent bunny killing tool The astonishing little hmr pill will never be able to compete on those terms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 silent till it hits thats always the bit that I find scares other rabbits. In practice theres very little in it as they can't work out where the noise comes from with the HMR and usually just stick their heads up to listen. But that description says pretty much everything for me and strangely I'm probably one of the few who actually don't want a .22lr as I've used one a lot and just can't get used to the ricochet issue, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 On my application that I sent in the first place I had .22lr on there, it was so much hassle with land and stuff I took it off. FAC air can do the .22lr's job, and the hmr cleans up where neither can touch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_HMR Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Oh and back on topic Personnaly i have a CZ but you having come from quaility air rifles i would go with the anschutz the trigger will annoy you on the CZ if you dont. Not to say the CZ is not a good rifle mine will shoot very well after a few modifications but some people like to have everything done right when buying something that expensive i like to tweak ita bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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