ALTON HAMPSHIRE another lamb kill ?? many dead,

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i am sure many of you PW members including myself visit and shoot on our permission farms be it 10 acres or a large estate and most have sheep in small or large numbers, this lambing time i spent many hours day/night on fox watch , here as above is a hard working sheep farmer reduced to tears at the loss of a fair number of new born lambs, police suspect a walker with dog but this happened away from the footpath so likely a deliberate act of total ***********, the small farm i shoot on as i mention there is a footpath through 1 field via the road way to the downs way, i have permission if ever the case to shoot a dog doing the same but i do not think legal ?? is it not bad enough for our farmer friends to loose a few lambs to foxes??? , anyone living in the ALTON area with any info phone 101, thanks for looking, ps i am a big softie with lambs

Edited May 18, 2017 by oldypigeonpopper

[achosenman]

Shooting a dog worrying sheep is legal.

 

Hampshire Police (Petersfield) instructed me to just get on with it and inform them when the job was done because it saved paperwork.

 

They were going to charge the owner under the dangerous dogs act to boot. This particular animal had history, and the owner was warned by myself, the Police and the farmer on several occasions.

 

Thankfully the family moved before the errant hound could do any more damage.

 

Not something anyone wants to do, but sometimes unpleasant things happens.

[Luckyshot]

Shooting a dog worrying sheep is legal.

 

Hampshire Police (Petersfield) instructed me to just get on with it and inform them when the job was done because it saved paperwork.

 

They were going to charge the owner under the dangerous dogs act to boot. This particular animal had history, and the owner was warned by myself, the Police and the farmer on several occasions.

 

Thankfully the family moved before the errant hound could do any more damage.

 

Not something anyone wants to do, but sometimes unpleasant things happens.

 

Its not legally that easy.

[achosenman]

 

Its not legally that easy.

 

No offence intended, but I'll take the advice of the Police and my solicitors' over yours.

 

Since I may be called on to do the deed, I took precautions and got professional legal advice. The are certain restrictions true, but as long as you clearly state when you give your statement indicating that those conditions were met, then it is a lawful shooting.

 

Again, respectfully, I'm not going to re-hash this debate on PW, it's been done to death on a myriad of other forums ad nauseam

 

All I would suggest is get legal advice from a proper solicitor, it will cost money but doesn't everything.

 

Atb

[ordnance]

 

 

The are certain restrictions true, but as long as you clearly state when you give your statement indicating that those conditions were met, then it is a lawful shooting.

I assume you mean tell the police the truth of what happened.

[achosenman]

I assume you mean tell the police the truth of what happened.

 

The truth is always the from the POV of the person telling it. That is why there is frequently discrepancies about the same incident from differing witnesses.

 

If you are tacitly suggesting I would lie and needlessly shoot some-ones dog, you couldn't be more wrong.

 

The dog I mention above could have been shot by me and no-one would have been any the wiser.

 

I don't do that sort of thing, just like I don't shoot peoples pet cats.

 

Atb

[leadbreakfast]

We've shot many dogs worrying sheep, most of the time the dogs where on there own. But the times when the owners are there the police don't bother to come out when the owner rings it in.

 

There are signs on the gates instructing to keep dogs on leads so only themselfs to blame.

[ordnance]

 

 

If you are tacitly suggesting I would lie and needlessly shoot some-ones dog, you couldn't be more wrong.

No not suggesting anything i personally would not shoot a dog for a farmer, if they were my sheep then i would do what i needed to do. Apart from anything else why would i take the chance of legal action etc, for someone else's sheep.

 

• National Sheep AssociationUnder the Animal Welfare Act 2006, it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to dogs (or other protected animals). The factors used to decide whether the suffering caused by shooting a dog is unnecessary include: whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced; whether the act which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, in this case protecting property or another animal; whether the suffering was proportionate the intention of the action; and whether the conduct was wholly that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
• Although the Act makes allowance for what it calls ‘the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner’, the law is based so heavily on circumstance that it is very difficult to know if your actions will count as this. You are at particular risk of falling foul of this Act if you fail to kill the dog cleanly with one shot. Offences can be punished with up to six months’ imprisonment and/or fines of up to £20,000. You could also be disqualified from keeping animals.
• Shooting a dog also puts you at risk of committing a firearms offence. You could be prosecuted for breaking certificate conditions if you use a rifle or other section 1 fire arm to shoot a dog, unless the certificate conditions allow such use. Chasing a dog in order to shoot it has been known to lead to prosecution for trespassing with a firearm. Firearms offences are usually punished with imprisonment unless they are minor technicalities. A police review of your right to possess firearms will almost certainly result from shooting a dog. Your certificates may be taken away with no guarantee of them being returned.

Edited May 18, 2017 by ordnance

[ordnance]

Edit double post.

Edited May 18, 2017 by ordnance

[achosenman]

 

No not suggesting anything i personally would not shoot a dog for a farmer, if they were my sheep then i would do what i needed to do. Apart from anything else why would i take the chance of legal action etc, for someone else's sheep.

 

• National Sheep AssociationUnder the Animal Welfare Act 2006, it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to dogs (or other protected animals). The factors used to decide whether the suffering caused by shooting a dog is unnecessary include: whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced; whether the act which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, in this case protecting property or another animal; whether the suffering was proportionate the intention of the action; and whether the conduct was wholly that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
• Although the Act makes allowance for what it calls ‘the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner’, the law is based so heavily on circumstance that it is very difficult to know if your actions will count as this. You are at particular risk of falling foul of this Act if you fail to kill the dog cleanly with one shot. Offences can be punished with up to six months’ imprisonment and/or fines of up to £20,000. You could also be disqualified from keeping animals.
• Shooting a dog also puts you at risk of committing a firearms offence. You could be prosecuted for breaking certificate conditions if you use a rifle or other section 1 fire arm to shoot a dog, unless the certificate conditions allow such use. Chasing a dog in order to shoot it has been known to lead to prosecution for trespassing with a firearm. Firearms offences are usually punished with imprisonment unless they are minor technicalities. A police review of your right to possess firearms will almost certainly result from shooting a dog. Your certificates may be taken away with no guarantee of them being returned.

 

 

Ordnace there you go with the cut'n'paste.

 

As I said, I am happy with my position and will do what is lawful. You must do what you are happy with, but then again I suspect you have never had to make a decision where there are profound consequences if you get it wrong.

 

Again, I'm not going to debate this with you.

[ordnance]

We've shot many dogs worrying sheep, most of the time the dogs where on there own. But the times when the owners are there the police don't bother to come out when the owner rings it in.

 

There are signs on the gates instructing to keep dogs on leads so only themselfs to blame.

I would be up to you to report it to the police if you shot a dog, if the owners are there or not.

[ordnance]

 

 

Ordnace there you go with the cut'n'paste.

The cut and paste is from a reliable and recognised source, i think that is more reliable advice than opinions on a internet forum, people can decide for themselves what advice is most reliable. If you have a issue with cut and paste, here is a link.

 

Search Results

Destroying dogs that attack | Advice for Farmers | National Sheep ...

www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners/advice-for.../destroying-dogs-that-attack/

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by ordnance

[bostonmick]

just to put a real point to this one,a friends son shot a dog that had killed a few lambs and was in the process of chasing others with obviously the same outcome,had his license revoked by firearms dept and it took over a year and a fortune in legal fees to get it returned,the incident had several witness's and one video'd the dogs actions,so as people have said it really is not as cut and dried as some believe,think very carefully about pulling that trigger as it may be a very long time before you get the chance again,for my own part i think these dogs should be shot or destroyed later if no gun available,but my opinion will hold no water in the eyes of the law or a court.

[Vince Green]

I would imagine there would be a backlash, you only have to complain on the neighbourhood website about dog fouling in the park to generate abusive replies.

[ordnance]

just to put a real point to this one,a friends son shot a dog that had killed a few lambs and was in the process of chasing others with obviously the same outcome,had his license revoked by firearms dept and it took over a year and a fortune in legal fees to get it returned,the incident had several witness's and one video'd the dogs actions,so as people have said it really is not as cut and dried as some believe,think very carefully about pulling that trigger as it may be a very long time before you get the chance again,for my own part i think these dogs should be shot or destroyed later if no gun available,but my opinion will hold no water in the eyes of the law or a court.

Good advice.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i am sure many of you PW members including myself visit and shoot on our permission farms be it 10 acres or a large estate and most have sheep in small or large numbers, this lambing time i spent many hours day/night on fox watch , here as above is a hard working sheep farmer reduced to tears at the loss of a fair number of new born lambs, police suspect a walker with dog but this happened away from the footpath so likely a deliberate act of total ***********, the small farm i shoot on as i mention there is a footpath through 1 field via the road way to the downs way, i have permission if ever the case to shoot a dog doing the same but i do not think legal ?? is it not bad enough for our farmer friends to loose a few lambs to foxes??? , anyone living in the ALTON area with any info phone 101, thanks for looking, ps i am a big softie with lambs

hello, thanks for your replies, i think my concensus is no shooting and phone farmer, it was just a thought but as happens never seen anyone cross the field oh except me

[Mice!]

Sure it wasn't a big cat? Sorry couldn't resist.

[achosenman]

The trouble with the internet is you only get a view designed to reinforce the authors prejudices.

 

As I said, the law allows the use of firearms in certain circumstances.

 

The government publication Guidance on firearms licensing law (guidance to Police) states:

 

Dogs

14.61 Section 9 of the Animals Act 1971provides a defence for killing or injuring a dog if the
defendant acted to protect livestock, and subsequently informs the police within forty-eight
hours of the incident. The defendant can only act in defence of livestock in such a way
if the livestock, or the land on which it is, belongs to them or to any other person under
whose express or implied authority they are acting. Note that the Animal Act 1971 does
not extend to Scotland – see section 13(4).

 

And below is section 9 of the animals act 1971:

 

9 Killing of or injury to dogs worrying livestock.

 

(1)In any civil proceedings against a person (in this section referred to as the defendant) for killing or causing injury to a dog it shall be a defence to prove—

 

(a)that the defendant acted for the protection of any livestock and was a person entitled to act for the protection of that livestock; and

(b)that within forty-eight hours of the killing or injury notice thereof was given by the defendant to the officer in charge of a police station.

 

(2)For the purposes of this section a person is entitled to act for the protection of any livestock if, and only if—

 

(a)the livestock or the land on which it is belongs to him or to any person under whose express or implied authority he is acting; and

(b)the circumstances are not such that liability for killing or causing injury to the livestock would be excluded by section 5(4) of this Act.

 

(3)Subject to subsection (4) of this section, a person killing or causing injury to a dog shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to act for the protection of any livestock if, and only if, either—

(a)the dog is worrying or is about to worry the livestock and there are no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying; or

(b)the dog has been worrying livestock, has not left the vicinity and is not under the control of any person and there are no practicable means of ascertaining to whom it belongs.

 

(4)For the purposes of this section the condition stated in either of the paragraphs of the preceding subsection shall be deemed to have been satisfied if the defendant believed that it was satisfied and had reasonable ground for that belief.

 

(5)For the purposes of this section—

(a)an animal belongs to any person if he owns it or has it in his possession; and

(b)land belongs to any person if he is the occupier thereof.

 

As I previously stated, I think any prudent firearms user should get proper legal advice, not rely on internet chatter.