BSA Scorpion SE

[Evergreen]

If your main quarry is rabbits then go for .177, zero it at 30 or 35 yards and you are set to go. Limiting yourself to 35 yards is fine in theory but you will find that you cant get close enough sometimes so 45y or even 50y becomes necessary. Once you get to know your rifle the Scorpion can make those ranges.

Not having to think about mildots inside 40y in the heat of the moment is another plus point for the .177. Esp when the light is fading.

But then we move on to the nv discussion...lol...

Makes sense, .177 it is then 👍

[hawkfanz]

my main hunting rifle is a scorpion se 177,perfect.but i do have an aas410 in 22,thats very accurate as well but but i get more kills with the bsa,,but only cos it shoots flatter over varying distances.if the range stayed the same,the aa would be just as good.

[Ultrastu]

my main hunting rifle is a scorpion se 177,perfect.but i do have an aas410 in 22,thats very accurate as well but but i get more kills with the bsa,,but only cos it shoots flatter over varying distances.if the range stayed the same,the aa would be just as good.

This is the perfect summary of the cal debate .

[Pistol p]

But the big question is still unresolved! .22 or .177?

My outfit started as .22 which was ok, definate kills within 30 metres. But don't like the looping characteristics of the pellet. So I bought a .177 and built the outfit around that. I'm now getting more kills at distance, certainly more within 30 metres, it mKes for a more productive day out.

[Guest]

My outfit started as .22 which was ok, definate kills within 30 metres. But don't like the looping characteristics of the pellet. So I bought a .177 and built the outfit around that. I'm now getting more kills at distance, certainly more within 30 metres, it mKes for a more productive day out.

There are many that converted from .22 to .177 but few that went the other way. The few that did was because they tend to shoot inside 35y.

[Guest]

Have a look into general shooting external ballistics. In every case a slower and heavier projectile penetrates more than a lighter faster one why would an airgun pellet be any different ?

 

 

Because Ultra, rifle ballistics are different. The 5.56 round is a high velocity frangible round ie it disintegrates after penetrating a short distance. The military in the west decided to switch from 7.62 to 5.56 because the 7.62 round tended to over-penetrate (anyone who was in the forces and remembers the old SLR will know it was over-powered). The smaller 5.56 does not penetrate less because it is smaller, but because it is designed to break into pieces after penetration. The .17HMR does exactly the same thing whereas the .22LR is a solid shot.

 

A good example is what happened to JFK. Lee Harvey Oswald shot solid carcano rounds. The rounds that hit the president passed straight through (one round clipped a guy 200 yards down the road). The final round that blew his head off was from an idiot in the car behind who had a misfire with his AR15 that fired a high velocity frangible 5.56 round; that round did not pass through. The 5.56mm round is designed to do that.

 

Air rifle pellets are different because both are solid. The .177 is not frangible like a 5.56, so the smaller of the 2 pellets is still going to penetrate further like a Stiletto.

[suburban shooter]

Military bullets are full metal jacket not hollowpoint or softpoint hunting bullets which are designed to be frangible or varyingly frangible. Velocity, rifling twist rate and bullet weight and design make differences in stability which are a method of increasing wounding whilst staying within the rules of the Geneva Convention ( the reason for the full metal jacket ). The original American 5.56 bullet was 55 grain but the British went for 62 grains to make it more stable plus other modifications to make it penetrate better.

 

Re JFK, clear your mind of what you know and watch the hit on his head with fresh eyes. The shot did not come from above.

 

7.62 x 51 NATO verses 5.56 x 45 NATO no contest the former puts the enemy down SLR all the way.

[bruno22rf]

Meanwhile back in the real world of Airgun hunting ( which is where we are here) I have just spent the last 45 minutes with my Chrono and a paperback book - using my .22 and .177 S410's I have confirmed to myself that the .22 will not penetrate anywhere near as deep as the .177. If anybody has a legal limit .22 that will match my .177 for depth using the standard AA Field then I will eat my underpants.

[Snoozer]

Meanwhile back in the real world of Airgun hunting ( which is where we are here) I have just spent the last 45 minutes with my Chrono and a paperback book - using my .22 and .177 S410's I have confirmed to myself that the .22 will not penetrate anywhere near as deep as the .177. If anybody has a legal limit .22 that will match my .177 for depth using the standard AA Field then I will eat my underpants.

Ummm interesting, as according to some post's in theory you should be half way through said under garment :(

Oh and which paper back did you use for testing ?

Edited September 24, 2017 by Snoozer

[Guest]

I am currently repeating Bruno's test with some wax blocks and expect to get the same result.

[Ultrastu]

Why did you use a book ??

Do you go air gun hunting in a library ?

Not particularly relevant to flesh and bone .

If you use more realistic mediums like gel .clay .jelly

You will find the .22 will penetrate deeper .

How do I know ?

Because I spent about 6 months researching and experimenting this exact subject about 2 years ago .

Not particularly interested in revisiting it all again now just to reconfirm what I and many others have come to know .

But you carry on shooting books .

[Whitetail]

So by your argument a 12 Ftb .25 should out penetrate both .22 and .177 ?

[Ultrastu]

Given the same head profile and energy and a higher bc .

Absolutely.

[Ultrastu]

There was even a 6 issue running article in airgun world earlier this year on this exact subject and the heavier larger calibres always penetrated most mediums further .

This isn't my crazy idea .It's well documented fact .

High bc pellets (irrespective of calibre ) penetrate mediums more than low bc ones .It's what ballistic coeficient means .the ability to retain energy through a medium .air ,water ,flesh , gel , wood ,metal .

They all effect the projectile differently and you will get slightly variying results .but the ones we should be most interested in are the ones that replicate flesh and bone the most .

Gel being the closest .

I even spent a lot of time shooting rabbit skulls and trying to record the exit velocity through a chrono with different pellets at varying ranges .very hard data to collect i will tell you .

[Ultrastu]

So by your argument a 12 Ftb .25 should out penetrate both .22 and .177 ?

Thing is most people with a sub 12 .25 use h+n ftt which being only 19 grns has a very low bc of around 0.019 and as such doesnt penetrate as much as a .177 as field bc 0.023 let alone a .22 field at 0.032 but you knew that ? .

[Ultrastu]

By contrast a .25 cal jsb king has a bc of around 0.036 and it takes a lot to stop that 25 grns of train believe me .

 

Ps for context. I have guns in -

 

.177 6 fpe , 12 fpe , 16 fpe ,19 fpe

.22 5 fpe , 12 fpe, 24 fpe, 30 fpe

.25 45 fpe

 

And have tested them exhaustively

[Gonk]

The West chose 5.56 vs 7.62 for weight. More bullets for the same weight carried. Either size hurt a lot and will kill the same if hit the same place.

[Ultrastu]

The West chose 5.56 vs 7.62 for weight. More bullets for the same weight carried. Either size hurt a lot and will kill the same if hit the same place.

Makes sense to me .

But the military are going back to 7.62 .

As are the armed police .

I know as my best mate has just taken delivery of the new guns in 7.62 for armed poilce response unit .

[Gonk]

Yes the "sharpshooter" rifle is 7.62, I tried to get a civilian version not long ago but cash got in the way! Probably a change in the developing way warfare is waged in the modern era?

[Ultrastu]

I do apologise if im coming across as a know it all .and I whish no members any disrespect .for we all test and try things and see results and cant help but come to conclusions .some times sweeping .

And historically we have been told for years that . 22 is better than .177 cos it hits harder and makes a bigger hole .and in a (the world is flat type of science ) this would appear to be true .

The real scientific fact is that generally (as there are a couple of exceptions ) the higher the bc of a projectile the more it will penetrate .making a narrow long deep hole in a medium .as opposed to a low bc projectile which will shed its energy rappidly on contact with said medium slowing rapidly and making a short wide hole in the target.

So if you want to shoot rats at close range use a fast energy dump light weight pellet like a .177 hollow point or wad cutter . A .177 pellet for long range rabbits

Or a .22 pellet for body shot pigeons (deeper penetration )

 

The above isnt tricky to understand but old wives tales die hard I suppose .

[Whitetail]

I'm surprised because we've always been told to use 22 or 25 around buildings to stop over penetration. On the vermin hunters YouTube channel they used a .25 weihrauch that killed very well but there was little leeway in regards to trajectory . Bc will obviously come in to play at range but it might not make a difference at the distances most of us shoot at, I wouldn't chose a bullet on its bc because it might only be noticeable over 250-300 yds

In the past I've done a lot of testing on arrow shafts for bow hunting and weight for weight , small diameter shafts out penetrate larger diameter every time when shot from the same bow, the best compromise for me was medium weight ( slightly lower bc) with a reasonably flat trajectory.

The .25 weihrauch has got me thinking though !

[Ultrastu]

Just for reference I have just watched a vid of a guy shooting into ballistic gel and comparing bullet penetration depth and expansion with a .22 lr .36 grn hollow point mini mag

He shot gel at 25 yds and 300 yds

At 25 yds the bullet hit at 1165 fps for 110 fpe of energy

And at 300 yds it hit with 700 fps and 50 fpe of energy

The penetration depth was virtually identical at 11 .2 and 11.3 inches

The extra speed on the close range shot created massive bullet expansion and slowed the bullet .

Conclusion .speed isnt a factor in penertation depth .

 

For comparison ive tested high speed .177 pellets v sub 12 pellets (the same pellet type) and they basically penetrate the medium the same amount .ie speed isnt a factor in depth .

[bruno22rf]

Good question Snoozer - "FOUR" a divergent collection by Veronica Roth but with the hard cover pulled back and somewhat damp with Spaniel spit as my Springer insisted on retrieving the book after each shot. Better yet were the 2 Apples, an old Paper target taken from my target holder and a partially eaten slipper returned during the Chrono testing stage.

Oddly enough I have been asked to stop shooting in our local Library Stu but if I am ever reborn as a Rabbit and sense that someone is after me with a .22 - sure as hell going to hide behind a book.

Edited September 24, 2017 by bruno22rf

[Ultrastu]

Lol .

Fair enough .

[Guest]

Well, I'm still not buying that larger pellets pen deeper. Here are my unscientific results using wax candles:

 

 

.22 - 20mm pen

.177 - 23mm pen

 

Closer than I was expecting though (and no I don't hunt candles).