Minimum Price Per Unit Introduced In Scotland

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm not too sure there's much to be gained from arguing the toss as to whether alcoholism is an illness or not. Whether alcoholism is an illness or an addiction, or both or neither ( and like I said, much depends on who you talk to ) and whether we like it or not is irrelevant, as we are all as taxpayers, paying for it.

We subsidise the treatment and care of alcoholics as much as we subsidise the ambulances which rush to their aid; the hospital beds they occupy, and the drugs and care they receive until well enough to return to their accommodation, which we also subsidise. Are we suggesting we don't treat the problem? 

Thats not treating the problem, thats treating the symptoms, the end result.
Im not saying for one moment that putting the price of alcohol up is going to cure alcoholism, its not.
But constantly pouring money into treating the results of it, are never going to cure the problem.
Its like putting bog roll on a leaking water pipe, eventually youll run out of bog roll.

[Scully]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats not treating the problem, thats treating the symptoms, the end result.
Im not saying for one moment that putting the price of alcohol up is going to cure alcoholism, its not.
But constantly pouring money into treating the results of it, are never going to cure the problem.
Its like putting bog roll on a leaking water pipe, eventually youll run out of bog roll.

It's a grand statement and I stand corrected, but does it make any difference? It's just as pointless claiming one is treating the symptoms and not the problem as it is claiming one is an illness or isn't. What difference does it make?  Tax payers are left with picking up the bill, whatever the problem or symptoms. We wont 'run out of bog roll' while tax payers are paying tax. It makes no difference e whether its an illness or addiction.  I don't understand what point it is you're trying to make. 

Many people with all manner of problems turn to drink, as they do with other drugs; it's a default setting for some folk as a form of escape or release. A high to make a change from the lows. I've done it myself. The problem with alcohol and other addictive drugs is that once the highs become a problem they then become the lows; getting back to normality is extremely hard work, and creates a low. So what's the answer.....have a drink of course, and then it doesn't matter for a while.  

What would you suggest? How do we treat the problem and how do we treat the symptoms? As long as we have the problem we'll have the symptoms, and the taxpayer will continue to subsidise both. As stopping 'constantly pouring money into treating the results' wouldn't cure the problem either, I'm not sure I understand your train of thought. 

 

 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

What would you suggest? How do we treat the problem and how do we treat the symptoms? As long as we have the problem we'll have the symptoms, and the taxpayer will continue to subsidise both. As stopping 'constantly pouring money into treating the results' wouldn't cure the problem either, I'm not sure I understand your train of thought. 

 

My statement was more about answering Henry d s assertion that it was an illness tbh.

You are correct, we will continue paying for it, as long as we can, whilst there are more of ' us ' and less of  ' them '
But there may come a time when there are that many of 'them' and this includes all non contributing members of society, that the entire social security system fall apart.

More and more people are dropping out because they simply cant hack life these days, as in , doing a 9-5 job, paying bills and trying to keep up with the Jones.
Where as next door doesnt work and seems to be better off.
The street alcoholics are just the bottom rung of the benefits ladder, and yes we have all buried ourselves in a bottle to escape reality sometimes, it just depends how long we stay there, some never leave.
Your smack heads and perpetual weed heads a similar creature, impossible to employ, but also impossible to not look after them.

But this is the problem, whilst not exactly encouraging them, we do indeed pay for them to do it via benefits.
Trust me on this one, I have a younger brother who is a hopeless weed head, he sleeps all day and smokes all night , not worked for 30 years and no intention of doing so.
On jobseekers ! They let him do it, pay his rent and let him get on with it.
What kind of system is that ?
As youre aware there are literally millions of people in this country doing similar, at what point will we be no longer able to support them ?

What Im saying stands, if we keep doing the same things as we are , the problem isnt going to lessen, its going to get worse.
It needs a radical change to combat it , or the problem will end up changing US .

The answer is simple, yet virtually impossible to implement.
Make the benefits system less attractive, the problem is ,everyone who is on the teat has a vote.
Which means any government that has the courage to do it , will be a short lived one.

[grrclark]

Interesting reading some of the comments in this thread.  It also strikes me of the danger when you frequent places too often where so many people are of a like mind, it leads to classic confirmation bias and entrenching a particular way of thinking.

What has intrigued me is that a fair few posters have talked about their experiences of the black dog blighting their life and in general there is actually a very supportive response; yet in a rather bizarre twist, to my way of thinking at least, when talking about addictive illness there is a fairly broad church of opinion that harks back to the "pull yourself together" type of response, the just deal with it as it is entirely your choice and entirely your problem.  The same attitude is prevalent in some of the threads that have talked about sexuality.

Addiction is hideously complex and has biochemical underpinnings, science has identified markers within the human gnome that indicate where someone where will be predicated towards addiction, same as some are predicated towards arthritis, epilepsy, depression or schizophrenia and every other disease.

For those of you that suggest it is simple choice, it may well be a simple choice for you because that is the way that you are constructed, your wiring and plumbing allows it to be a simple choice, for others the reality is very different.

Same as some of us can deal with pressure and stress with little impact, where as others have a very different experience and become incapacitated with seemingly simple things that others take in their stride.

I daresay the pious and self righteous will revert to type and say anybody with an addictive illness chose to take that first drink, place that wager on the horse, popped their first pill, etc and so be content that it is 100% individual choice, but how do you know until it happens to you.  At what point do you see in yourself that there is a problem that is still within your control to do something about?  Do you never have a beer or whisky just in case, do you never place the bet?

As many on here will also have experienced I have seen first hand the destruction that addictive illness can bring, the torment in the person suffering the addiction that know they are on the path to self destruction, that they actually do understand the collateral damage to their friends and loved ones, yet despite everything that they do know they are still unable to stop.  They ruin their mind, their body, their relationships; they have withdrawal fits and soil themselves in public, they shake and shiver constantly and can't string a sentence together, they cannot function in everyday life and all because they are selfish and want to live that life choice?

As evidenced by many posts on here so many are content to judge and say it is 100% individual choice, they can choose to stop, but they just don't want to.

Same used to be said to people suffering depression, those individuals that have a good job, good friends, a family that love them and yet that same individual that knows all those things cannot shake the black dog, the shadow that looms over them telling them they are not worthy.  That is a choice too isn't it, after all they just have to stop thinking in a stupid way, appreciate the life they have and stop being silly and selfish and wallowing in self pity.

Edited May 10, 2018 by grrclark
Typos

[fern01]

I do not understand why we are allowed to be constantly bombarded with gambling adverts with free incentives to get people hooked.

Gambling destroys lives and families just the same as other addictions, perhaps without the associated medical problems.