The Salisbury Poison Gas Incident II

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, extra judicial kidnappings by Western governments, torture (whilst telling others off for doing the exact same), land theft, apartheid support, illegal invasions, killing millions based on lies, destroying several countries, displacement of millions based on fake reasons, selling arms to despots.........................how come these don't tickle your conscience much compared to your friend's suffering ? 

Again....Russia doesn’t or hasn’t done any of this? 

[pinfireman]

2 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Waterboarding Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, extra judicial kidnappings by Western governments, torture (whilst telling others off for doing the exact same, land theft, apartheid support, illegal invasions, killing millions based on lies, destroying several countries, displacement of millions based on fake reasons, selling arms to despots.........................how come these don't tickle your conscience much compared to your friend's suffering ? 

Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, the gulags?  As for "lies",   "fake" reasons" , arms sales to despots,  sounds like your Russian friends? Or are they squeaky clean?  My friends suffering was real, and PROVEABLE!

[Hamster]

Doing what ? 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

After what they did to my friend, and other Ukrainian and Polish  people I,ve met, I,ll go with West,s stance! I find that most conspiracy theorists are just that.....theorists! Where there,s smoke, there is usually fire!

 

I absolutely agree with you, I think what the Russians did to Poland and other Eastern European countries absolutely unforgivable.
But we live in the West, what did Germany do to Russia, Poland, France,Czechoslovakia , Greece and the Ukraine, amongst a plethora of others?
What did Japan do to 100s of 1000 s of Chinese ,British, Dutch and Kiwis, amongst a plethora of others ?
We seem to have a lot more forgiveness for them somehow.
But we have been bought up on a diet of Russian hating since about 1947, even though Russia has never really done anything to us.
Strange that isnt it ?

 

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

All conjecture. You want us to believe the Russians aren’t responsible for so much of the things it is claimed they are, yet you have nothing better to offer than your own unprovable ( unless you WANT to believe it! 😉 ) opinion. 

Of course its conjecture, its as much conjecture as someone telling you Russians came over and poisoned Skripal, because err.. they dont like him, and its on the news so it has to be true ?
 

[pinfireman]

13 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Errrr, that actually translates to you can't, yours (as in the official msm version of events) is all too readily blown apart when viewed with any degree of logic. It's just that when presented with these alternative angles you simply continue to ignore them and come up with gems like : well what do you propose to do about it ! 😏

 

It manifests itself in murica and its puppet states being able to continue to spend trillions on their arms industries and fooling the sheeple that they're under threat whilst the .0001% fill their already obscenely rich pockets with our taxes and ignore actual real world issues such as poverty, unemployment, climate change, homelessness, etc, etc, etc............................

and these things do not happen in the paradise that is a "socialist" country?  How blinkered!

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You cant really argue with that.
Churchill and Truman considered carrying on and invading Russia after Germanys defeat, why ?

Were they that scared of communism ?
We know Churchill was, his aristocratic roots made him so , it was a direct threat to his status quo.

So why didnt they do it?
Quite simple really, they didnt fancy their chances, and thats with the bomb.

Within a few years they had formed NATO to counter the soviet 'threat' Russia formed the Warsaw pact a few years later, and the cold war and arms race began.
And continues, despite what you may have been told.

Consider Ukraine.
What if the failure of its European integration, break up and resultant civil conflict caused such consternation to its western backed government, that they were willing to do virtually anything to blacken Russias admittedly, already shaky reputation.
Willing to shoot peaceful protesters and blame in on ethnic Russian Ukrainians.
Say Russian tanks were coming over the border ?
Maybe shoot down a passenger plane, and say it was fired from Russian territory ?
Assassinate dissident journos.
Or poison ex Russian spies in a UK city indiscriminately ?

No one knows for sure, what we do know is that some of the above have been proved false, the rest are considered proved in the west, but only on the flimsiest of evidence, or journalistic kangeroo court.
What it comes down to in every instance is MOTIVE.
You want to believe the Russkies had or have motive, but if you can unbias yourself, then it becomes apparent that there are others with better motives.

Can you list the ones proved "false"?

[Hamster]

2 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, the gulags?  As for "lies",   "fake" reasons" , arms sales to despots,  sounds like your Russian friends? Or are they squeaky clean?  My friends suffering was real, and PROVEABLE!

Never said others haven't committed heinous crimes, my reply was specifically aimed at your comment : 

After what they did to my friend, and other Ukrainian and Polish  people I,ve met, I,ll go with West,s stance! I find that most conspiracy theorists are just that.....theorists! Where there,s smoke, there is usually fire!

I am asking what causes you to chose one "criminal" over another ? 

[pinfireman]

On 08/09/2018 at 20:47, henry d said:

Who, apart from you, says it was casually sprayed on?

Probably the brain dead of the Left.

[Hamster]

3 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

and these things do not happen in the paradise that is a "socialist" country?  How blinkered!

Russia isn't Socialist and no their defence spending is a fraction of that of America which squanders the same amount as the next 10 biggest spenders. 

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

and these things do not happen in the paradise that is a "socialist" country?  How blinkered!

Can you list the ones proved "false"?

The fake Babshenko 'hit'

The Pictures ,proved fake, of Russian tank columns heading over the Ukrainian border.

I can find the links if you dont believe me, but will take a little time.
Also , it was widely reported how a captured BUK launcher manned by Ukrainian separatists bought down MH17 .
Remember the launch vehicle with the missing rocket story , which 'proved' it ?
When it was proved this wasnt possible, they went to plan B and blamed it on a Russian guards division deep inside Russia.
Completely leaving out the fact there were Ukrainian multiple BUK launchers that could have done it in the area.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Rewulf

[pinfireman]

10 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Tell that to Dr. David Kelly, Assange and Edward Snowden . 

Can't remember the name of the now transgender marine who got locked up for exposing murican crimes, there's also been several journalist murdered in the middle east who had published expose's on Western crimes. 

You have inrefutable proof over Dr, Kelly? 

12 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Tell that to Dr. David Kelly, Assange and Edward Snowden . 

Can't remember the name of the now transgender marine who got locked up for exposing murican crimes, there's also been several journalist murdered in the middle east who had published expose's on Western crimes. 

In the Middle East, where anyone who takes any stance on anything political or religious, is liable to be killed? As for the "exposes"....probably all unproven!

[Rewulf]

Can't remember the name of the now transgender marine who got locked up for exposing murican crimes

Chelsea Manning, 'shes' out now I think ?
Locked up for the leaking of military communiques ,including the notorious 'Collateral murder' video.
Pardoned by Obama I believe.

[pinfireman]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I absolutely agree with you, I think what the Russians did to Poland and other Eastern European countries absolutely unforgivable.
But we live in the West, what did Germany do to Russia, Poland, France,Czechoslovakia , Greece and the Ukraine, amongst a plethora of others?
What did Japan do to 100s of 1000 s of Chinese ,British, Dutch and Kiwis, amongst a plethora of others ?
We seem to have a lot more forgiveness for them somehow.
But we have been bought up on a diet of Russian hating since about 1947, even though Russia has never really done anything to us.
Strange that isnt it ?

 

Of course its conjecture, its as much conjecture as someone telling you Russians came over and poisoned Skripal, because err.. they dont like him, and its on the news so it has to be true ?
 

Stalin was never satisfied with the countries he occupied in 1947.  Like most Communists, he wanted to spread the "love" into other territories. He, and his heirs, pumped millions into funding communist insurrections across the globe, a policy that the Soviets started in the 1930,s.

[Hamster]

9 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

You have inrefutable proof over Dr, Kelly? 

Experts tell us he couldn't have cut his own wrists and bled to death there plus the msm maintaing that he killed himself because he was worried for his pension is clearly a load of concocted rubbish but apart from that no more than the fact I know building 7 didn't fall on its own due to office fires or that there is no plane wreckage visible in the Pentagon missile strike. 

What proof do you have Putin ordered the poisonings ? 

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Chelsea Manning, 'shes' out now I think ?
Locked up for the leaking of military communiques ,including the notorious 'Collateral murder' video.
Pardoned by Obama I believe.

Thank you, can't keep up with memorising the names of all the poor boogers the "Free" West is chasing after and trying to silence. 😂

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hamster

[pinfireman]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I absolutely agree with you, I think what the Russians did to Poland and other Eastern European countries absolutely unforgivable.
But we live in the West, what did Germany do to Russia, Poland, France,Czechoslovakia , Greece and the Ukraine, amongst a plethora of others?
What did Japan do to 100s of 1000 s of Chinese ,British, Dutch and Kiwis, amongst a plethora of others ?
We seem to have a lot more forgiveness for them somehow.
But we have been bought up on a diet of Russian hating since about 1947, even though Russia has never really done anything to us.
Strange that isnt it ?

 

Of course its conjecture, its as much conjecture as someone telling you Russians came over and poisoned Skripal, because err.. they dont like him, and its on the news so it has to be true ?
 

Skrypal was intended to be a lesson to others who might spill the beans on Putin.  Remember, Putin was a KGB man.....back in the 1950,s those who were believed to have spied for the West were cremated in the furnaces that heated the Lubyanka.....alive!

 

[Scully]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I absolutely agree with you, I think what the Russians did to Poland and other Eastern European countries absolutely unforgivable.
But we live in the West, what did Germany do to Russia, Poland, France,Czechoslovakia , Greece and the Ukraine, amongst a plethora of others?
What did Japan do to 100s of 1000 s of Chinese ,British, Dutch and Kiwis, amongst a plethora of others ?
We seem to have a lot more forgiveness for them somehow.
But we have been bought up on a diet of Russian hating since about 1947, even though Russia has never really done anything to us.
Strange that isnt it ?

 

Of course its conjecture, its as much conjecture as someone telling you Russians came over and poisoned Skripal, because err.. they dont like him, and its on the news so it has to be true ?
 

I’m not sure I said at anytime it was true, just that it was the most logical answer so far....err.

So this time, as no one seems to be able to say who it was, can they tell me why wouldn’t it be the Russians? 

[pinfireman]

17 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Never said others haven't committed heinous crimes, my reply was specifically aimed at your comment : 

After what they did to my friend, and other Ukrainian and Polish  people I,ve met, I,ll go with West,s stance! I find that most conspiracy theorists are just that.....theorists! Where there,s smoke, there is usually fire!

I am asking what causes you to chose one "criminal" over another ? 

My friend was the living proof, not propaganda!  And I choose the side that I think, on reflection, is less likely to  be at fault!

[Hamster]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not sure I said at anytime it was true, just that it was the most logical answer so far....err.

So this time, as no one seems to be able to say who it was, can they tell me why wouldn’t it be the Russians? 

Because there is not enough plausible MOTIVE, unlike say for Ukraine, US or Israel. 

5 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

My friend was the living proof, not propaganda!  And I choose the side that I think, on reflection, is less likely to  be at fault!

Propaganda ? Really ? Is that your take on the following : 

 

Waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, extra judicial kidnappings by Western governments, torture (whilst telling others off for doing the exact same), land theft, apartheid support, illegal invasions, killing millions based on lies, destroying several countries, displacement of millions based on fake reasons, selling arms to despots.........................how come these don't tickle your conscience much compared to your friend's suffering ? 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Hamster

[pinfireman]

17 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Russia isn't Socialist and no their defence spending is a fraction of that of America which squanders the same amount as the next 10 biggest spenders. 

So the entire rebuilding of the Russian Navy, and Air Force, was done on the cheap?   Russia has earned, and continues to earn, billions from gas and oil sales. Where is it all going, if not on  armaments? 

[Hamster]

4 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Skrypal was intended to be a lesson to others who might spill the beans on Putin.  Remember, Putin was a KGB man.....back in the 1950,s those who were believed to have spied for the West were cremated in the furnaces that heated the Lubyanka.....alive!

 

Is that it ? Where is your proof ? 

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Experts tell us he couldn't have cut his own wrists and bled to death there plus the msm maintaing that he killed himself because he was worried for his pension is clearly a load of concocted rubbish but apart from that no more than the fact I know building 7 didn't fall on its own due to office fires or that there is no plane wreckage visible in the Pentagon missile strike. 

What proof do you have Putin ordered the poisonings ? 

Thank you, can't keep up with memorising the names of all the poor boogers the "Free" West is chasing after and trying to silence. 😂

I wondered how long it would take for you to get round to the attacks in America. Like I said, you simply have no idea, and throw up all manner of ludicrous chaff in order to distract when the going gets tough. You really are a loon, which is a shame as I was enjoying this.

Im out. 

[Hamster]

Just now, pinfireman said:

So the entire rebuilding of the Russian Navy, and Air Force, was done on the cheap?   Russia has earned, and continues to earn, billions from gas and oil sales. Where is it all going, if not on  armaments? 

No not done on the cheap because they don't have to maintain 900 military bases around the planet, unlike murica. It was done because primarily they feel under threat from NATO. 

Just now, Scully said:

I wondered how long it would take for you to get round to the attacks in America. Like I said, you simply have no idea, and throw up all manner of ludicrous chaff in order to distract when the going gets tough. You really are a loon, which is a shame as I was enjoying this.

Im out. 

Or perhaps you're the loon and hate being made to wake ? 

[pinfireman]

17 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The fake Babshenko 'hit'

The Pictures ,proved fake, of Russian tank columns heading over the Ukrainian border.

I can find the links if you dont believe me, but will take a little time.
Also , it was widely reported how a captured BUK launcher manned by Ukrainian separatists bought down MH17 .
Remember the launch vehicle with the missing rocket story , which 'proved' it ?
When it was proved this wasnt possible, they went to plan B and blamed it on a Russian guards division deep inside Russia.
Completely leaving out the fact there were multiple BUK launchers that could have done it in the area.

Once again,  no proof it was not fired by them! And the  European air crash investigators have confirmed that it was indeed from the Russian/Ukrainian side.  Or are they lying to prove your point?

10 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Experts tell us he couldn't have cut his own wrists and bled to death there plus the msm maintaing that he killed himself because he was worried for his pension is clearly a load of concocted rubbish but apart from that no more than the fact I know building 7 didn't fall on its own due to office fires or that there is no plane wreckage visible in the Pentagon missile strike. 

What proof do you have Putin ordered the poisonings ? 

Thank you, can't keep up with memorising the names of all the poor boogers the "Free" West is chasing after and trying to silence. 😂

Building 7 ? No plane involved in Pentagon missile strike? You believe all these silly theories?   And here I am, thinking this was a sensible discussion!  Good job the wife wants me to go shopp[ing with her, or my ribs would be aching from laughing! Bye for now.

[Hamster]

When the going gets tough.........................😂   

[pinfireman]

8 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Is that it ? Where is your proof ? 

Yeltsin  released papers showing what happened to opponents back in the day!

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Once again,  no proof it was not fired by them! And the  European air crash investigators have confirmed that it was indeed from the Russian/Ukrainian side.  Or are they lying to prove your point?

They wont be biased at all will they ?
Bearing in mind the now 'liberated from Russia' Ukraine is looking to join the EU ,and ultimately NATO ?

Tell me something, what would have happened if they had discovered it was fired by the Ukrainian government ?
Would they publish it?
 What if it was a deliberate act to then blame Russia for it, would they not HAVE to collude with their potential allie ?