Demonic69 Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: "Why should the police - or rather the local council taxpayer - have to supplement their sport? It's not as if the police are expected help pay the cost of anyone else's sporting activities." Yet, as tax payers, we are expected to subsidise others' sporting activities. Maintenance of public pitches, cycle lanes and cycle routes to name a few. £21million in Sheffield alone for sports and leisure facilities this year. I don't believe clay grounds get any help from councils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 12 minutes ago, Demonic69 said: Yet, as tax payers, we are expected to subsidise others' sporting activities. Maintenance of public pitches, cycle lanes and cycle routes to name a few. £21million in Sheffield alone for sports and leisure facilities this year. I don't believe clay grounds get any help from councils. Very good point , I hope someone uses that as a counter argument when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 9 hours ago, Rewulf said: Very good point , I hope someone uses that as a counter argument when the time comes. I wouldn’t bother trying to work through the figures - it’s just politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 13 hours ago, Demonic69 said: I've actually just done a Run cost for additional users on an existing network. Works out at £450 per user per month over 5 years. That includes hardware, tech refresh, evergreen, outsourced support, Windows, SCCM, Ivanti, E3 and other licenses plus a load of other fun stuff. This is as an out-sourcing company too, and some forces run theirs internally, so should be even cheaper! PNC is charged per-use apparently, wasn't that what ACPO were selling on, cost them 50p or similar and they charged their customers £6 or something? No idea bout salaries for the staff though, I made wild assumptions based on the people I've interacted with. Do you reckon they're on more or less? Expenses do add up, we spend a fortune, but mis-management of expenses shouldn't fall onto the customer (us) and neither should overtime for what shouldn't be an overly complicated job. Although there may be more more to it than I realise, which is the reason a full-cost breakdown is essential before the mud starts flinging at shooters. There's also aprrox £8million generated in renewals alone each year, with an upward variation of up to £2Milion for new grants. Not to mention they're taxpayer funded regardless and shooting is a £1bn boon to the economy. I think your costs are relatively fair for IT, although many forces may opt for a cheaper E1. or F3, but don't forget you also have the overhead costs of not just the car, but in-car kit. The radio and install that's in all cars has quite a cost. Mobile phone may add £100-200 a year, plus contract and call costs, then an always-on VPN licence and back end server costs. I am sure you could apportion some of that into the other licence costs, but it does add on. PNC depends on the profile. You can get cut down access (in-car ANPR has a different licence than to a PNC read-only operator, and again different to someone with inputter rights etc). Regardless, firearms team would only need read only, so would be one of the cheaper CALs. Then it depends on what databases you're accessing, so licencing would potentially need access to them all. Then there's the softer side, such as niche/RMS and other local intel systems. Some enquiries will require cross border checks as local systems don't tie directly into PNC if the information isn't necessary to store on PNC. Regardless I believe there is a CAL cost, and then a per-transaction fee. I'd suggest for the managers they'd be earning around inspector rates, but I'd suspect FEOs and admins to be lower than you think. Maybe do a FOI request to your local force? So, that cost will be made up of grants and renewals, utilising a lot more tech and FEO power. The modifications and buying/selling must be still quite a dent. No-one has really mentioned the cost of checking out a RFD, as I believe that has different bandings. I have no idea how much effort it is to set up a gun shop for example. Finally, storage of seized guns and ammo. There's a cost to store and keep in reasonable temperature and humidity. Agreed to a full breakdown making sense, but expect to have 1/200th of the building cost added in, and same 1/200th for power and light and water and taxes etc if the building hosted 200 persons. That will be a massive chunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 11 hours ago, HantsRob said: I think your costs are relatively fair for IT, although many forces may opt for a cheaper E1. or F3, but don't forget you also have the overhead costs of not just the car, but in-car kit. The radio and install that's in all cars has quite a cost. Mobile phone may add £100-200 a year, plus contract and call costs, then an always-on VPN licence and back end server costs. I am sure you could apportion some of that into the other licence costs, but it does add on. PNC depends on the profile. You can get cut down access (in-car ANPR has a different licence than to a PNC read-only operator, and again different to someone with inputter rights etc). Regardless, firearms team would only need read only, so would be one of the cheaper CALs. Then it depends on what databases you're accessing, so licencing would potentially need access to them all. Then there's the softer side, such as niche/RMS and other local intel systems. Some enquiries will require cross border checks as local systems don't tie directly into PNC if the information isn't necessary to store on PNC. Regardless I believe there is a CAL cost, and then a per-transaction fee. I'd suggest for the managers they'd be earning around inspector rates, but I'd suspect FEOs and admins to be lower than you think. Maybe do a FOI request to your local force? So, that cost will be made up of grants and renewals, utilising a lot more tech and FEO power. The modifications and buying/selling must be still quite a dent. No-one has really mentioned the cost of checking out a RFD, as I believe that has different bandings. I have no idea how much effort it is to set up a gun shop for example. Finally, storage of seized guns and ammo. There's a cost to store and keep in reasonable temperature and humidity. Agreed to a full breakdown making sense, but expect to have 1/200th of the building cost added in, and same 1/200th for power and light and water and taxes etc if the building hosted 200 persons. That will be a massive chunk. Being drawn in by the endless convolutions of accounting is to ignore the real issue. The original news piece was simply about diversionary politics. Policing the UK cost £22.49 billion last year. The firearms licencing component is virtually insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Fellside said: The original news piece was simply about diversionary politics. I agree, but its a diversion that , unfortunately will do as its intended.... 1 hour ago, Fellside said: Policing the UK cost £22.49 billion last year. The firearms licencing component is virtually insignificant. It is insignificant , but thats the problem. The wider public will see what it believes , as a niche sport, populated by toffs , and wannabe Rambos, being subsidised by their hard earned taxes. They wont bat an eyelid at the cost of following suspected terrorists around, or utter wanton wastage in vehicles and compensation claims, this they will believe is either necessary to them , or unavoidable. The target will be the shooting community, a relative minority , with no voice or influence, despite the whimpers from the likes of BASC et al. Weve seen it time and time again, rather than toughen up the licencing procedure, or show more diligence when concerns are raised, we have had the banning of certain firearms. I believe this time , we will have both , a more expensive and tougher system , and continuing restrictions on what types of firearm you can privately own. Its already happening , slowly but surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 30 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I agree, but its a diversion that , unfortunately will do as its intended.... It is insignificant , but thats the problem. The wider public will see what it believes , as a niche sport, populated by toffs , and wannabe Rambos, being subsidised by their hard earned taxes. They wont bat an eyelid at the cost of following suspected terrorists around, or utter wanton wastage in vehicles and compensation claims, this they will believe is either necessary to them , or unavoidable. The target will be the shooting community, a relative minority , with no voice or influence, despite the whimpers from the likes of BASC et al. Weve seen it time and time again, rather than toughen up the licencing procedure, or show more diligence when concerns are raised, we have had the banning of certain firearms. I believe this time , we will have both , a more expensive and tougher system , and continuing restrictions on what types of firearm you can privately own. Its already happening , slowly but surely. I can understand your concerns Rewulf. It’s easy to think the public are against us, and will readily digest the diatribe articles (per this thread). However most don’t give it a thought - it’s just not on their radar at all. Also, the news piece was small scale and localised. The national media have alluded to D and C being at fault several times. The coverage actually hasn’t been dominated by the usual anti clap trap…..strangely. Perhaps because the cock-up was so obvious…..?! Just trying to focus on the positives……..🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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