Help needed on identifying proof mark

[Diver One]

I'm trying to do a *** of history research on the 16g Bayder I got from Mick Vokes earlier this week

so far, I reckon

it was made in Belgium

proofed in Germanynas it has. W on it

nitro proofed in London AFTER 1964 as it has a 16 inside the diamond cartouche...pre 64 there was also a C in the diamond

possibly done in 1976 as it has LP/04.  I believe this started in 1973 as LP/00 so LP/would suggest 1976

imcannot work out what the Crown over an omega symbol/octopus is ( top right of first pic )

 

 

 

 

But it's all guesswork,and supposition as I'm not really sure what I'm looking for😂

 

Its getting its first outing tomorrow

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

A bit of a long shot, but could it be a more modern version of the 'R' mark for Re-proof?  The pic is of the UK proof houses book, 1981 4th edition, so a bit out of date. 

1. It is London
2. It is a reproof (of a foreign proofed item)
3. It is not the same as pictured, but more modern marks have been 'tided up'

I may be completely wrong of course!

[wymberley]

I think "bar" came in in 1989. It does look like the London reproof mark, but the seemingly over-stamped 16.7 is smaller than the original 16 bore diameter (0.662") so it must have been a tight one.

[Diver One]

@JohnfromUK

Aha!    A fancy stylised italic R,   That fits the bill nicely, thanks

 

its certainly an enigma

now to work out what the other two numbers are

 

3934

9015

ive had it in bits ( rude not to, really ) every part has 9015 stamped on it even down to the little embellishment by the forend plunger so i Am guessing it's a production number?

 

its a lovely looking gun, I will just have to see how it performs tomorrow, and report back

 

thanks again, all info /thoughts appreciated

[Gunman]

Original German proof .London reproof 2004 [LP/04]with London reproof stamp . There are or were proof Houses in Suhl and Clone , Hard to tell but I think this was Suhl originally . What makes you think its Belgian ? London proof did not date stamp as Birmingham did until 2000 if memory serves me , so 2000was LP/OO.

 

 

 

 

[Diver One]

@Gunman

it has ANC. Etabl  and Pieper on the left barrel.   Herstal Belgique on the right barrel

both barrels have BAYARD & Knight on horseback and Demi-Bloc

[London Best]

Could likely be made in Germany using Belgian barrels. Not uncommon.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Diver One said:

Herstal Belgique on the right barrel

Herstal is a city in Belgium in the province of Liège.  The business "Herstal Group" owns several small arms manufacturers including FN, Winchester, Browning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herstal_Group

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Diver One]

Thanks for that, I do like a bit of intrigue.

presently loading the car up then off to have a play with it, watch this space

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Diver One said:

Etabl  and Pieper on the left barrel.

There was a Henri Pieper in Herstal Belgium.  I suspect that Etabl may be a 'shortform' for something like "Established in"  It seems commonly used in Belgium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anciens_Etablissements_Pieper

[JohnfromUK]

Attached are the Suhl proof marks (from the internet) and the Suhl proof marks on a set of barrels and action (a bit tricky to get a good photo).  Gun dates to 1963.

Edited August 28, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Gunman]

7 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Attached are the Suhl proof marks (from the internet) and the Suhl proof marks on a set of barrels and action (a bit tricky to get a good photo).  Gun dates to 1963.

So how do you get 1963 ? 

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, Gunman said:

So how do you get 1963 ? 

3rd photo - barrels proof marks, the number is 763, which I assume is July 63.  The printed chart shows the example for "Date when proved" as 1254, which I assume is December 1954.  I was told when I bought the gun it was 1960s.  I suppose it could also be 768.

Also from Hallowell and Co re the Suhl proof house date codes; "Month and year, 3 or 4 numerals as required, with forward slash between month and year from 1921 until 1930s, as: 5/24 for May 1924.    Afterwards without slash, as: 1163 for November 1963." which comes from here  http://www.hallowellco.com/proof_date_codes.htm

Edited August 28, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Gunman]

I see it all ! The date you referred to was on the O/U barrels shown , not the photos from Diver One .

[JohnfromUK]

Sorry, yes. 

I couldn't see the proof marks on Diver One's photo clearly enough to know it was Suhl.  Since the other (names etc.) point to Belgium (I had to look up the Herstal Group as I had never heard of them, but it seems they now own the Browning, F.N. and Winchester names) - I wasn't sure on Suhl, so looked up Suhl proof marks ........ but the printed page I could find a copy of on the internet (which I think comes from the book "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" ) wasn't very clear either, so I ended up taking photos of my own Suhl proofed o/u - which has fairly clear marks (apart from not being quite certain if the last digit is a 3 or an 8 !!).  My gun has UK proof marks on another face of the breech.  I should look up the date there I suppose as I imagine it was imported and UK proved when new.

My guess is that Diver One will find Liege proof marks somewhere (maybe overstamped?) because Herstal (and Henri Pieper) are in the Liege area.

Edited August 28, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Diver One]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

My guess is that Diver One will find Liege proof marks somewhere (maybe overstamped?) because Herstal (and Henri Pieper) are in the Liege area

This is tomorrow's project. Bit of engineers Blue then wipe in off and see what remains indented

Can't get any of the 3 number sets to correspond to a date yet

thanks for all the pointers

[JohnfromUK]

6 hours ago, Diver One said:

thanks for all the pointers

It has been an interesting learning session for me as well. 

Often proof marks - especially when re-proofed are difficult to de-cypher.  The example of Suhl I showed - I'm not now sure if the Suhl date code is 763 or 768 as the last digit is poorly stamped.  Today I will try and find the UK proof date code (it was re-proofed when it entered the UK, which I assume was when new).

[Gunman]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It has been an interesting learning session for me as well. 

Often proof marks - especially when re-proofed are difficult to de-cypher.  The example of Suhl I showed - I'm not now sure if the Suhl date code is 763 or 768 as the last digit is poorly stamped.  Today I will try and find the UK proof date code (it was re-proofed when it entered the UK, which I assume was when new).

John ,its London 2004 as stamped , the two numbers are the last 2 of the year .The gun looks to be lot older than 18 years and I have always associated that style of coking with older guns , but I am not that familiar with  all German made guns so could be mistaken .

  German proof is acceptable in the UK then no need to proof on entry prior to sale .I see no reason for a Belgian gun to be German proofed [ Had it been Cologne just across the boarder ,then may be as I know some Belgians use this proof house as Liege is very fussy ] so it has to be a German made gun retailed by a Belgian company .

What I dont like is the way the 16.7 is stamped suggesting some one as altered the size with a different " 7" punch .

NB . German proof houses did not mark a specific bore size ,it was optional for makers to do so  I was  told by a Belgian gunmaker , all guns proofed were recorded with the bore size which can be looked up if you desired assuming records still exist . Therefore unless a weight is marked there is no way of telling if a gun has been bored up from its nominal size  so its proof status would be questionable ,which I guess is the reason for the reproof .

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Gunman said:

The gun looks to be lot older than 18 years and I have always associated that style of coking with older guns , but I am not that familiar with  all German made guns so could be mistaken .

Yes, I thought it looked older.  I also agree the '7' of the 16.7 appears heavier.  Could it be that the '16' is a single stamp (rather than a '1' and a '6') and the '7' also a single stamp?  That might account for the '7' being more deeply impressed as there is less metal to shift.

My comment on the 1963 date (or could it be 1968?) relates to my own o/u with the Suhl proof marks.  On close inspection through a magnifying glass I still can't tell if it is a 3 or an 8.  It also has London proof (see photo below) which I didn't think used a date code until the 1970s?  However, I don't know what the characters in the triangle (looks like TG over 3) are indicating?  Otherwise that looks standard London proof that could be correct for 1963 or 68.

The gun also has a Birmingham re-proof mark when it seems to have had it's chambers sleeved (photo).  This was not in my ownership.  The code there is the diagonal crossed swords with a 'B' at the 12 O' Clock position and it looks like 1 and 0 on the 9 O'Clock and 3 O'Clock positions, with probably a 3 at the 6 O'Clock position (close up photo).

Top - London proof marks, date unknown

Middle - Birmingham re-proof marks for chamber sleeving

Bottom - close up of Birmingham date code with chamber sleeving re-proof marks.

Edited August 29, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[wymberley]

I haven't a clue. See DO's 2nd photo, RH barrel, 3rd stamp from the left. We often see various figure stamps involving 13 and "over one" (as it were) for 12 bores. Any chance this could have been a 17 bore classed as 16 and the 16.5 ish (0.649" ish) over stamped to a now 16.7 on reproof?

[Diver One]

We'll, after a bit of furtling and engineers Blue coupled with a wipe with an oily rag, some more marks have come to light. Others have come out a bit clearer

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

The U, S, and W under a crown are (I think) German, though which proof house I don't know.  See here - which I think you will find has a number of similar marks. http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-indentification/

As Wymberly has said there is a 17 and I think a 17/1 that I can see.

[Gunman]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The U, S, and W under a crown are (I think) German, though which proof house I don't know.  See here - which I think you will find has a number of similar marks. http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-indentification/

As Wymberly has said there is a 17 and I think a 17/1 that I can see.

17 & 17/1 are bore sizes but what the Germans considered to be standard sizes may have differed from those in the UK as they used millimetre sizes . 

Definitely a Liege provisional proof mark but that not surprising as the Belgian exported barrel all over .

What ever the age the gun was not made/proofed in the Nazi years as it would have had a swastika stamped as well . 

[wymberley]

47 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The U, S, and W under a crown are (I think) German, though which proof house I don't know.  See here - which I think you will find has a number of similar marks. http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-indentification/

As Wymberly has said there is a 17 and I think a 17/1 that I can see.

Nice work, Diver One. Yep, can now see the '/1' as per the 13/1, etc, that we often see. So, as the 16.? has been over stamped to 16.7, is it fair to say that in view of the 17/1, in all probability it was more in line with that bore - whatever that dimension  may be - than the 16.7 it now is? Further, as the German proof marks are accepted here, would the growth in the barrel diameter from, perhaps, the UK nominal 17 bore 0.649" (16.5) ish to the current 16.7 (0.657") be the possible reason for the re-proof even as a confidence check?

[Diver One]

I'm going down a rabbit hole here😂😉

the German eagle and N is for German Nitro proofed this came in during 1912....so,it's POST 1912. Sofar so good

it also has Crown over W.......German choke bored barrels ( abolished 1939 )

so I reckon it was born twixt 1912/1939

so the 3934 could be the birthday? Code?

the first 3 is very slightly higher than the 934

this is pure guesswork and clutching at straws I think it was the 3rd gun (3) made in September (9) 1934 (34)

OR they just used it as a test piece for all the proofing stamps they had 😂😂😂

 

 

 

 

Your turn 😉