410 Proofed 1100KG

[enfieldspares]

57 minutes ago, London Best said:

Half right! 
3 inches is 76.2 mm. 
But you are right, there is no such thing as a 2 3/4 (70mm) .410 gun or cartridge.

Yes! Oops. Total nonsense I've written there. 3" is indeed 76mm and not 70mm. I've now corrected it. Thank you.

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, 70 mm is not 3 inch , all the 410s i had could only use 2 1/2 inch cartridges, to be honest i would be prepared to buy a 410 with 3 inch chambers

Correct. My error. 76mm is 3" and I've now corrected my post.

Edited May 16 by enfieldspares

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes! Oops. Total nonsense I've written there. 3" is indeed 76mm and not 70mm. I've now corrected it. Thank you.

Yes. Now corrected.

Hello, no worry there, as i happen i bought loads of 410 Carts when JC moved Warehouse but still not bought a 410 shotgun🤔🙄

[softlad]

Went out at the weekend and let loose a few loads on the Pigeons, no problems at all, very effective indeed. 

Its now Tuesday and no reply to the email I sent to Lyavale!!! Not as though I now need a reply but in my old way of thinking its not great service. 

They would know in a second the rating of their cartridges and the proof reading I gave them. I'll bet I never get a reply because they dont want anything to do with saying this that or the other is safe. Again I bet if I do get a reply its: the safety instructions and ratings are on the box. Yet, should I say I want some info prior to purchasing a 1000 the reply would be coming!! 

As you get older you seem to get a more honest view on life, even if that view is a tad jaded   

[wymberley]

7 hours ago, softlad said:

As you get older you seem to get a more honest view on life, even if that view is a tad jaded

Never mind a jaded view, how about a faded memory?

On 16/05/2024 at 10:13, wymberley said:

so, like for like in practice. I'm avoiding answering your original question as I know nothing about 410s not having shot one for some 70 years.

Bearing in mind the above, I'll give it a go anyway.

Do you happen to know just how old those cartridges are?

740 Bar standard cartridge service pressure with 960 Bar proof pressure. Transducer reading. In round figures the proof 'mark up is service plus 30%

The 960 Bar figure replaces the 850 Bar Crusher reading. Now the guesswork. Would a 1971 made gun magnum proofed at say 1100 kg/cm2 crusher reading equate to the 1200 bar transducer reading ( not the 1370 Bar HP steel proof requirement)?

[softlad]

9 hours ago, wymberley said:

Never mind a jaded view, how about a faded memory?

Bearing in mind the above, I'll give it a go anyway.

Do you happen to know just how old those cartridges are?

740 Bar standard cartridge service pressure with 960 Bar proof pressure. Transducer reading. In round figures the proof 'mark up is service plus 30%

The 960 Bar figure replaces the 850 Bar Crusher reading. Now the guesswork. Would a 1971 made gun magnum proofed at say 1100 kg/cm2 crusher reading equate to the 1200 bar transducer reading ( not the 1370 Bar HP steel proof requirement)?

There brand new fresh mate. 

[Fil]

On 16/05/2024 at 11:34, enfieldspares said:

My AYA .410" No4 is 3" aka 70mm 76mm chamber. There is no such thing as a 2 3/4" length .410" cartridge.

👍

[wymberley]

4 hours ago, softlad said:

There brand new fresh mate. 

Yep, on reflection the 850 does make sense. Although, now, the figure is 96 MPa it does equate to 850 Bar. So, if the maker had printed 960 Bar those folk with crusher proof at 850 Bar would have been concerned unnecessarily.

Edited May 22 by wymberley

[softlad]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Yep, on reflection the 850 does make sense. Although, now, the figure is 960 MPa it does equate to 850 Bar. So, if the maker had printed 960 those folk with crusher proof at 850 would have been concerned unnecessarily.

Thanks wymberley but its above my paygrade now  thats gone right over my head TBH.  Whilst I understand me being a cautious person I recall my first shot. That was a 410 that my father in law had when he was a child. No one ever thought of such issues, I just was given an old paper shell and popped it in, still here to tell the tail. In fact has anyone heard of any gun failing at all from an overrated cartridge?? On a rough shoot following a few too many knocks at the flask I fell over, well slipped, that sounds better!! Unknowingly filling the 12 bore with soil. Luckly, no very luckily only burst the barrel end and never noticed until I got home and still shot the bunny! Lucky. 

 Sadly not had an email from the cartridge manufactory's, you would think they would be happily writing the details out.   

[wymberley]

24 minutes ago, softlad said:

Thanks wymberley but its above my paygrade now  thats gone right over my head TBH.  Whilst I understand me being a cautious person I recall my first shot. That was a 410 that my father in law had when he was a child. No one ever thought of such issues, I just was given an old paper shell and popped it in, still here to tell the tail. In fact has anyone heard of any gun failing at all from an overrated cartridge?? On a rough shoot following a few too many knocks at the flask I fell over, well slipped, that sounds better!! Unknowingly filling the 12 bore with soil. Luckly, no very luckily only burst the barrel end and never noticed until I got home and still shot the bunny! Lucky. 

 Sadly not had an email from the cartridge manufactory's, you would think they would be happily writing the details out.   

Having got over the confusion once I'd twigged about the lead crusher system, it simply means that you're good to go as evidenced by the figures.

I 'slipped' as well and have corrected my error by deleting the '0' from the 960 MPa.

[softlad]

Okay this is where we're at now. Please remember its down to you what you use etc etc!!! Ive now shot 16 & 18 gram these being Hull High Pheasant and Lyalvale Supreme Game. Both 3".

This is where the facts get me frustrated, 1 bar is close as damn it to 1KG/CM2 so the Lyalvale is simple to calculate because they say on the box Gun must be proofed to 850 bars, simple. But then HULL just say must have this mark (sorry should have taken a picture). But I'm happy to assume that the HULL 18 gram is not way over the 16gram Lyalvale and with a safety margin of 250 bars and losing the will to think anymore, in the HULL went. Again, difference in recoil etc, none if any. 

Im sad to say that Lyalvale has not responded to my simple email which means: 1 cant be bothered, 2 poor customer service.

Now more interesting, went to a Gun Smith, not just a gun shop and was told (this is not a direct quote) 3inch chamber = 3 inch cartridge, all but the top magnums. He then got a tad tech about what is now a true magnum because many just say that. I wont get into any form of conversation regarding this, you must make your own mind up. And I trust him as much as I could trust anyone.  

But lets look at what we know, 1100KG is well within any normal loads and the above 2 cartridges just give a small recoil, so I think I've overthought this whole situation. The Hull High Pheasant 18 gram must be using the best powered and whose going to shoot any larger load. Okay they do a 19gram. I could use the 12 with a 21gram but the 410 is just so sweet and is more than enough. Oh many say they are using 7 size shot, I found the 6 perfect but maybe a choke/distance thing. 

But whats really got to me is this: why is it not easy to find such information? Okay on a new gun your good to go but theres 1000s of us out there that like the old. All the manufactures bypass the information by stipulating the basic proof marks or loads. Lyalvale was the easiest but how about this cartridge manufactures: 

Create a chart on your website that cross refs guns marking and proof marks, numbers, is that too much to ask?? Clearly yes. 

Anyway a big big thank you to you all. Got a Crow problem to address tomorrow, if I can get my hide right the 12 bore will not be coming out and the 410 will. Good luck all. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, softlad said:

Create a chart on your website that cross refs guns marking and proof marks, numbers, is that too much to ask?? Clearly yes. 

Yep, they'll get around to that shortly after they've agreed to tell us exactly what size the pellets actually are.

It's all quite straightforward. The proof marks may relate to load weight or possibly be given in a pressure which might be in tons/sq ins. On the other hand it may be in kgs/sq cm or perhaps bar or even pascals. OK so far? Now, however it's expressed it might refer to the service pressure if it's British or not if it's not. Simple, yes? And then it may relate to what is known as the crusher system or even the transducer thingies. Now they're the same although to keep it simple the numbers are different. Multiply the number of variations by the number of chamber lengths available divided by the cube root of the possible bore sizes and you're home and dry. What can possibly go wrong?

Good shooting. 

[London Best]

Simply put….yes, you are overthinking it, it’s a 3 inch .410, crack on.

[softlad]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

Simply put….yes, you are overthinking it, it’s a 3 inch .410, crack on.

100%  

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Yep, they'll get around to that shortly after they've agreed to tell us exactly what size the pellets actually are.

It's all quite straightforward. The proof marks may relate to load weight or possibly be given in a pressure which might be in tons/sq ins. On the other hand it may be in kgs/sq cm or perhaps bar or even pascals. OK so far? Now, however it's expressed it might refer to the service pressure if it's British or not if it's not. Simple, yes? And then it may relate to what is known as the crusher system or even the transducer thingies. Now they're the same although to keep it simple the numbers are different. Multiply the number of variations by the number of chamber lengths available divided by the cube root of the possible bore sizes and you're home and dry. What can possibly go wrong?

Good shooting. 

   Love that one.