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[murray smith]

Over-Zealous FEOs at the Met

Are police abusing the Certificate application process?

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Home > Vintage Gun Journal > Over-Zealous FEOs at the Met

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Issues & Events|September 2024

The Metropolitan police appear to be massively over-reaching their legal remit; to essentially harrass legitimate holders of shotgun and firearm certificates in order to reduce their numbers.

The law says that a shotgun certificate (SGC) shall be issued unless the applicant is a danger to the public or has no good reason for owning a shotgun. There is no test required for an applicant to prove their competence with a shotgun, nor any requirement for membership of a club or association. You do not even have to want to use the gun. You could have a SGC in order to hold a gun to give to a freind or relative to use.

"I want to shoot clay pigeons sometimes and get the odd invitation to shoot pigeons and pheasants" is enough 'good reason'.You do not need to specify any land or any club where you might want to shoot.

a shotgun certificate (SGC) shall be issued unless the applicant is a danger to the public...

As long as the applicant is not disqualified on medical grounds (letter from doctor) is not a convicted criminal and has a secure safe in which to store the shotguns, he SHALL be granted a SGC. That is what the law says. Remember, it is your right to be granted a SGC unless the police can show you are a danger or have no good reason to own one.

However, see the letter below, which was sent to a London-based applicant for the renewal of his SGC.

Good Morning,

Please send me the below photos/information/evidence so that I may expedite your shotgun/firearms certificate renewal application and then we may, in some circumstances, be able to speak on the phone rather than have a home visit. Once you have replied I shall be in touch with a suggested time/date for a home visit/telephone appointment.

·       Please send me  - A  written account about your past 5 years (since your last renewal/first time grant) shooting experience and the reasons you wish/need a certificate. Including how often you are shooting.*

·       Copies of certificates of relevant professional firearms/safety instructional lessons that you may have already attended (photos of safety certificate for example or professional qualifications/training completed such as Shotgun safety training course, NRA weapon certification/s, RCO, DSC1/2).*

·       In the absence of proof of any formal firearms safety training please provide (feel free to supply as many as you wish) a short written/typed testimony from a current SGC/FAC holder- who has either taught or witnessed your weapon handling skills. The person providing the testimony may of course email it directly to me should they so wish. Please note that this is separate from the reference/s which I will be seeking from your nominated referee/s.*

·       Details of the venue/club/range/land that you attend/intend to shoot.*

·       Please also send me the details/photos/evidence of membership to any shooting or conservation societies or clubs if you have any (eg. BASC/CPA/NRA membership cards/number’s).*

·       Details of any medication/dosage and the details of the condition you may be currently taking it for.*

·       Lifestyle, ie gym, golf etc*

·       Alcohol consumption*

·       Job description, responsibilities etc

·       Full names (including maiden names) and dates birth and relationship to you - of any persons living at your home address, including any children that are at university etc. Also any children from previous relationships including their details. Any persons that have access to your house ie key holders etc

·       Also contact details for your partner if you have one mobile and email

·       A detailed description of your house – Example – 5 bedroom house set over 3 levels double glazed locking windows throughout, Double glazed front door with 3 lever locking mechanism, garden set to the rear fenced on all sides not over looked.

·       Please also send me a photo of the front and rear of your home from the natural front/pavement/driveway. A photo of the front and back doors.

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Please also send me photo/s of your gun cabinet/s fitted securely to the wall.

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Please also provide me a brief  ‘step by step’ description of the route that must be taken to gain access to your gun storage safe/cabinet from standing in the natural entrance way (if within a communal block of flats) or front door of your home.  For example “From front door enter ground floor hallway, turn right and go up staircase to 1st floor landing, turn left and enter bedroom doorway straight ahead, the gun safe is on your right concealed within a built in wardrobe – bolted to the wall.”

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Details of any other security measures that feature at your home – either new or historic such as alarm(monitored/audible), CCTV – areas covered(including RING type doorbell cameras), PIR security lighting/areas covered, Dogs (breeds & age) owned etc.*

·       Below are two quizzes set by BASC please take time to complete one or both depending on your licence.*

·       Shotgun safe shot - theory test   - BASC*

·       Rifle safe shot - theory test  - BASC*

I shall be emailing your referee(s) – please ask them to check all their inboxes as my emails often end up in spam folders.

The above may sound like a lot but in my experience this is the smoothest, and quickest, method of processing your application.

Best regards,

PC Grant XXXX  Firearms Enquiry Officer, Firearms Enquiry Team MOXX – Force Firearms Unit

The demands above are overwhelming. A cynic might suggest deliberately so. The applicant who sent us this letter said he was so exasperated, he was thinking of giving up his guns. However, the vast majority of what the officr is asking for is not required in law and not even recommeneded in the guidance the police publish themselves to instruct their officers how to conduct these duties.

The police have a duty to uphold the law of the land. They do not have the right to make it, or to act as if the law were what they would like it to be...

If you look back at the points above, all those we have marked with a * go beyond what the police have a right to demand and could/should be ignored.

Another applicant for a FAC was required to provide written evidence from third parties that they had seen him use his firearms. Despite the fact he rented several thousand acres of deer stalking and had been using licenced firearms for close to thirty years. Again, this is not required in the police guidance on renewal of FACs.

The culture in the Met Police appears to be one of gross over-reach of thier legal powers in relation to performing their statutory duties in assessing the legal requirements of applicants for SGCs and FACs. The Gun Trade Association has been asked to make enquiries and entreaties to the force to prevent this from continuing. The police have a duty to uphold the law of the land. They do not have the right to make it, or to act as if the law were what they would like it to be, rather than what it is.

If readers are having problems with over-zealous police forces over-stepping their authority with regard to the garnt or renewal of SGCs or FACs, we recommend they contact a specialist frearms lawyer, like Laura Saunsbury, their shooting association (BASC etc) or the Gun Trade Association.

NOTES

Laura Saunsbury: Firearms Specialist Solicitor at Lewis Nedas - 020 3811 5143

The Gun Trade Association (Lin Oxley):  Lin@gtaltd.co.uk

BASC Firearms Advice:  https://basc.org.uk/contact-us/

What do you all think to this?

[Westley]

Absolutely disgraceful.  I do hope that BASC has been made aware of this. They have recently been involved with several Police Forces regarding the application and renewal of Shotgun/Firearms certificates.  They do not even have the right to ask you, where you intend to use your SHOTGUN,  but a lot of Forces do slip that one in on Shotgun Certificate applications. It is long overdue that Firearms Registry be taken out of the hands of the Police and a totally separate NATIONAL unit, working to one set of rules, be instated. 

[enfieldspares]

Please send me  - A  written account about your past 5 years (since your last renewal/first time grant) shooting experience and the reasons you wish/need a certificate. Including how often you are shooting.

Copies of certificates of relevant professional firearms/safety instructional lessons that you may have already attended (photos of safety certificate for example or professional qualifications/training completed such as Shotgun safety training course, NRA weapon certification/s, RCO, DSC1/2).

In the absence of proof of any formal firearms safety training please provide (feel free to supply as many as you wish) a short written/typed testimony from a current SGC/FAC holder- who has either taught or witnessed your weapon handling skills. The person providing the testimony may of course email it directly to me should they so wish. Please note that this is separate from the reference/s which I will be seeking from your nominated referee/s.

Details of the venue/club/range/land that you attend/intend to shoot.

Please also send me the details/photos/evidence of membership to any shooting or conservation societies or clubs if you have any (eg. BASC/CPA/NRA membership cards/number’s).

Simply reply "In relation to the above questions may I please refer you to s28 (1B) of the Firearms Act 1968 as presently in force.

s28 (1B) For the purposes of paragraph (b) of subsection (1A) above an applicant shall, in particular, be regarded as having a good reason if the gun is intended to be used for sporting or competition purposes or for shooting vermin; and an application shall not be refused by virtue of that paragraph merely because the applicant intends neither to use the gun himself nor to lend it for anyone else to use.”

 

Edited September 28 by enfieldspares

[armsid]

Westley i totally agree that licencing should be done outside of the police and also think it should go on computer same as mot testing if it is not on the system it is not needed ie a pass it is a pity BASC NGO NRA etc could not do this as a collective body and the fees charged paid for the service

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Unfortunately these additional parts are purely of the "Made up by the FEO" variety and have no basis in law.

They come about and most individuals applying for or renewing an SGC, just roll over and give in, whether from lack of knowledge or being worried.

But, over time they get ratified and accepted mainly because they are "forced" on a law abiding group of individuals that wish to be granted or keep their SGC.

I've had belligerent FEO's in the past and have told them firmly but politely that I will take the matter up with their Chief Constable and will drive to HQ and await my face to face appointment to make a complaint.

It has worked three times over the years, I wonder when I will have to use it a fourth time.

[Fil]

That letter to the certificate holder is completely outrageous. A far overstep of their legal remit. I know a lot of people will go along with it because they say "I don't want to upset them so I'l do it." Well no. Don't do it or pretty soon it will become the norm. I have taken many an feo to task, politely and professionally. Especially when they have come to interview my sons when they have applied for the SGC's at ages 14 and 17 at the time. They started asking too many questions about why where and how often when I had to pipe up. "He's not applying for a FAC" I replied. "Ah ah ah yes. Quite right. I was just asking." said the feo. It sounds petty to some but seriously, if you let them do it will become the norm. I deal with several force areas and I have people telling me all kinds of rules and stipulations the poice are trying on them. Stand up for your rights. Again, politely and professionally.

[Fil]

On 28/09/2024 at 19:54, murray smith said:

 

Good Morning,

Please send me the below photos/information/evidence so that I may expedite your shotgun/firearms certificate renewal application and then we may, in some circumstances, be able to speak on the phone rather than have a home visit. Once you have replied I shall be in touch with a suggested time/date for a home visit/telephone appointment.

·       Please send me  - A  written account about your past 5 years (since your last renewal/first time grant) shooting experience and the reasons you wish/need a certificate. Including how often you are shooting.*

·       Copies of certificates of relevant professional firearms/safety instructional lessons that you may have already attended (photos of safety certificate for example or professional qualifications/training completed such as Shotgun safety training course, NRA weapon certification/s, RCO, DSC1/2).*

·       In the absence of proof of any formal firearms safety training please provide (feel free to supply as many as you wish) a short written/typed testimony from a current SGC/FAC holder- who has either taught or witnessed your weapon handling skills. The person providing the testimony may of course email it directly to me should they so wish. Please note that this is separate from the reference/s which I will be seeking from your nominated referee/s.*

·       Details of the venue/club/range/land that you attend/intend to shoot.*

·       Please also send me the details/photos/evidence of membership to any shooting or conservation societies or clubs if you have any (eg. BASC/CPA/NRA membership cards/number’s).*

·       Details of any medication/dosage and the details of the condition you may be currently taking it for.*

·       Lifestyle, ie gym, golf etc*

·       Alcohol consumption*

·       Job description, responsibilities etc

·       Full names (including maiden names) and dates birth and relationship to you - of any persons living at your home address, including any children that are at university etc. Also any children from previous relationships including their details. Any persons that have access to your house ie key holders etc

·       Also contact details for your partner if you have one mobile and email

·       A detailed description of your house – Example – 5 bedroom house set over 3 levels double glazed locking windows throughout, Double glazed front door with 3 lever locking mechanism, garden set to the rear fenced on all sides not over looked.

·       Please also send me a photo of the front and rear of your home from the natural front/pavement/driveway. A photo of the front and back doors.

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Please also send me photo/s of your gun cabinet/s fitted securely to the wall.

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Please also provide me a brief  ‘step by step’ description of the route that must be taken to gain access to your gun storage safe/cabinet from standing in the natural entrance way (if within a communal block of flats) or front door of your home.  For example “From front door enter ground floor hallway, turn right and go up staircase to 1st floor landing, turn left and enter bedroom doorway straight ahead, the gun safe is on your right concealed within a built in wardrobe – bolted to the wall.”

·       *If you have a cabinet/safe fitted - Details of any other security measures that feature at your home – either new or historic such as alarm(monitored/audible), CCTV – areas covered(including RING type doorbell cameras), PIR security lighting/areas covered, Dogs (breeds & age) owned etc.*

·       Below are two quizzes set by BASC please take time to complete one or both depending on your licence.*

·       Shotgun safe shot - theory test   - BASC*

·       Rifle safe shot - theory test  - BASC*

I shall be emailing your referee(s) – please ask them to check all their inboxes as my emails often end up in spam folders.

The above may sound like a lot but in my experience this is the smoothest, and quickest, method of processing your application.

Best regards,

PC Grant XXXX  Firearms Enquiry Officer, Firearms Enquiry Team MOXX – Force Firearms Unit

 

 

What do you all think to this?

 

My full response to his letter if he is regarding a shotgun application/renewal: No. 

[alic]

I have never had any issues with the MET, certainly not been required to do most of that!-seems some standardisation is in order!

Edited September 30 by alic