BA flight lands short of runway

[roadkill]

:unsure: god knows what happened here

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7194086.stm

[Big_Sam]

Yeah saw that, seems the chap landed short, main gear came off then the port wing snapped.

 

Thankfully there was probably very little fuel on board as it was just in from a long haul flight.

[roadkill]

Yeah saw that, seems the chap landed short, main gear came off then the port wing snapped.

 

Thankfully there was probably very little fuel on board as it was just in from a long haul flight.

 

i was thinking that , its a good job he landed on the grass too .. they say it was an emergency landing so maybe there was no fuel wouldnt be the first time and that would also be a factor as to why it landed short

[Big_Sam]

The other option is that he did not get three greens on the undercarraige and decided to ditch it onthe grass. Correct procedure and fairly safe compared to sticking it on the runway and loosing the wheels there.

[Lord Geordie]

It's judt good news nobody was SERIOUSLY injured or worse.

 

No doubt we will get the full details soon but from the info I can see it SOUNDS like an undercarriage failure most likey Hydraulic or a lock mechanism failure hence comming in LOW to get the belly down ASAP with a gradual contact rather than a last minuet drop.

 

I know they train for it but this must be one of the pilots biggest fears.

 

After getting down without the under carriage and getting ALL the passangers off safely I bet there was a few huge sigh's of releif

Edited January 17, 2008 by Lord Geordie

[Browning]

Mrs Browning is at Heathrow due to fly out on business.

 

Apparently the PM's plane was due to take off around the time that this plane crashed, so the authorities have

now closed the airport, cancelled all incoming and outgoing flights, and placed an exclusion zone around

the airport.

 

No one is allowed to leave the airport unless they are walked out by security staff.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Browning

[pin]

BBC news are saying the other runway is still open?

[Big_Sam]

From heathrow website:

 

We can confirm that flight BA038, a Boeing 777, arriving from Beijing carried out an emergency landing at Heathrow Airport today at 12.42. Heathrow’s emergency services attended the scene. Passengers were immediately evacuated and taken to a reception centre at the airport.

 

Heathrow Airport’s southern runway is currently closed, the northern runway is operating. British Airways has issued a helpline for anybody concerned about family and friends: 0800 389 419.

 

Passengers flying from Heathrow today should contact their airline regarding the status of their flight.

[roadkill]

i wouldnt say it was the landing gear as there are marks in the grass where the main landing gear has touched down and the nose wheel is also down , also the main gear is sitting on the grass where it has been ripped off ........

 

I would think loss os power would be some cause to bring it in that low and if he didnt get three green lights they would of spoke to the tower and been given a better place to land ...

 

still well done to the pilots great job :unsure:

[Big_Sam]

Looking at the flight information, planes are landing but not taking off. Got to get them out the air, cant risk having dozens of planes running out of fuel at the same time!

[Big_Sam]

i wouldnt say it was the landing gear as there are marks in the grass where the main landing gear has touched down and the nose wheel is also down , also the main gear is sitting on the grass where it has been ripped off ........

 

I would think loss os power would be some cause to bring it in that low and if he didnt get three green lights they would of spoke to the tower and been given a better place to land ...

 

still well done to the pilots great job :unsure:

 

 

Three greens indicate that the gear is down and locked. If it does not lock it will fold up on impact, hence why you do down on the grass. If you go down on the runway you are ###.

[pin]

BBC new reporting an eyewitness saying they were paying a lot of attention to the port engine.

 

My speculation is he's had an engine fire / alarm / failure very low in his approach and couldn't compensate in time.

[ShaggyRS6]

I like a bit of aviation as you know. And in fact have done several hours on the real Sims in Seattle on the 777. We should not speculate as there are so many factors, including today's METAR which states high chance of Tornados and Wind Sheer.

 

However, that said, this is what I think happened and of course is only speculation.

 

I rekon that on approach there was engine failure due to a bird strike or mechanical reasons. What then happens very quickly is a series of events. On approach the aircraft will Automatically set the power to TOGA (take off and go around) power, in simple terms the good engine will go to 110% or something like that power. When that happens the plane will naturally try and go the way that single engine is going, a bit like torque steer :unsure: that will account for the weired Angle of attack and the fact people have reported it listing, what is then meant to happen is the Rudder will automatically feed in to compensate for the engine that is not working. Then the pilot needs to make a decision, I think BA's policy is to land when on approach and not to go around, so he would have tried (normally succesfully) to land it. What I dont understand, and this could be down to wind sheer, due to double engine failure, flap retraction, amny things is why he did not get it on the RWY.

 

I hope I have bored you all

[LEFTY478]

Altimeter set for the wrong height? Sound like he's tried to land it 50m too low and has therefore come in short of the runway.

BBC website reporting only three minor casualties, miracle really.

[al4x]

absolutely, considering where heathrow is is quite such a built up area any problems could be tragic. guess only a few people know what happened at the moment but seems like everything has been handled well so far.

[roadkill]

I like a bit of aviation as you know. And in fact have done several hours on the real Sims in Seattle on the 777. We should not speculate as there are so many factors, including today's METAR which states high chance of Tornados and Wind Sheer.

 

However, that said, this is what I think happened and of course is only speculation.

 

I rekon that on approach there was engine failure due to a bird strike or mechanical reasons. What then happens very quickly is a series of events. On approach the aircraft will Automatically set the power to TOGA (take off and go around) power, in simple terms the good engine will go to 110% or something like that power. When that happens the plane will naturally try and go the way that single engine is going, a bit like torque steer :unsure: that will account for the weired Angle of attack and the fact people have reported it listing, what is then meant to happen is the Rudder will automatically feed in to compensate for the engine that is not working. Then the pilot needs to make a decision, I think BA's policy is to land when on approach and not to go around, so he would have tried (normally succesfully) to land it. What I dont understand, and this could be down to wind sheer, due to double engine failure, flap retraction, amny things is why he did not get it on the RWY.

 

I hope I have bored you all

 

i like to say im a aviation buff to lol , i work for a local cargo company as a load controller and have also done a few times in a sim but the old 727 type ... could well be a bird strike not to sure looking at the wing damage that was caused by the main gear ... i have tried to get on my pilots forum but its to busy

[Big_Sam]

You could be right shaggy, engine failure couples with dodgy winds....

 

Having practised engine failure at take off, I can just imagine that they were s####ing themselves, it is horrible having no power when landing.

 

And whilst we are showing off our aircraft credentials, I have 15 hours as a pilot, and a BSc in Aircraft Maintainance! :unsure:

Edited January 17, 2008 by Big_Sam

[pin]

I'd have though it unlikely to be QNH/QFE related Lefty, just doesn't happen these days.

 

Later reports have come out of an unusual angle of bank, combined with the fact the emergency services immediately concentrated on the port engine I stick to my earlier call of port engine related problem.

 

Modern planes like this have autoland, however when something like this happens it's a drill and it's just about all manual. How much of that drill is possible and was performed correctly depends entirely on the two pilots and how low they were when the emergency happened.

 

If they had a strong headwind and they lost an engine low enough it would be a reaction call to compensate and get the thing over the threshold - something that they seem to have done very well.

[ShaggyRS6]

The hole in the wing is due to the landing gear puncturing it on landing. That gear is a little ways back on the grass :unsure:

[LEFTY478]

I'd have though it unlikely to be QNH/QFE related Lefty, just doesn't happen these days.

 

Later reports have come out of an unusual angle of bank, combined with the fact the emergency services immediately concentrated on the port engine I stick to my earlier call of port engine related problem.

 

Modern planes like this have autoland, however when something like this happens it's a drill and it's just about all manual. How much of that drill is possible and was performed correctly depends entirely on the two pilots and how low they were when the emergency happened.

 

If they had a strong headwind and they lost an engine low enough it would be a reaction call to compensate and get the thing over the threshold - something that they seem to have done very well.

 

My Ex-BA colleague has just told me something quite simular, something about 'Cat 3' runways, pilots and planes? Might mean something to you?

[roadkill]

 

[Big_Sam]

The hole in the wing is due to the landing gear puncturing it on landing. That gear is a little ways back on the grass :unsure:

 

I noticed that on the BBC photo. My guess is that he either:

 

a) Lost power thus hitting the ground and loosing the ear

Knew the gear was not locked down and thus decided to put it onthe grass

 

I would rather put it on the grass than the asphalt.

[roadkill]

The hole in the wing is due to the landing gear puncturing it on landing. That gear is a little ways back on the grass :unsure:

 

I noticed that on the BBC photo. My guess is that he either:

 

a) Lost power thus hitting the ground and loosing the ear

Knew the gear was not locked down and thus decided to put it onthe grass

 

I would rather put it on the grass than the asphalt.

 

 

The gear leg is sticking out the top of the wing this would indicate a very hard landing ..

[Big_Sam]

Judging by the distance he was doing 180 -0 in 1,200 feet. Oww that had to hurt.

[ShaggyRS6]

I'd have though it unlikely to be QNH/QFE related Lefty, just doesn't happen these days.

 

Later reports have come out of an unusual angle of bank, combined with the fact the emergency services immediately concentrated on the port engine I stick to my earlier call of port engine related problem.

 

Modern planes like this have autoland, however when something like this happens it's a drill and it's just about all manual. How much of that drill is possible and was performed correctly depends entirely on the two pilots and how low they were when the emergency happened.

 

If they had a strong headwind and they lost an engine low enough it would be a reaction call to compensate and get the thing over the threshold - something that they seem to have done very well.

 

My Ex-BA colleague has just told me something quite simular, something about 'Cat 3' runways, pilots and planes? Might mean something to you?

 

 

A CAT III rwy/landing is an ILS Category, the ILS, Instrument Landing Systems comes in 3 flavours, the best being CAT 3. The rest is copied to give you the actual meaning.

 

* Category I - A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height not lower than 200 feet (61 m) above touchdown zone elevation and with either a visibility not less than 2,625 feet (800 m) or a runway visual range not less than 1,800 feet (550 m). An aircraft equipped with an Enhanced Flight Vision System may, under certain circumstances, continue an approach to CAT II minimums. [14 CFR Part 91.175 amendment 281]

* Category II - Category II operation: A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height lower than 200 feet (61 m) above touchdown zone elevation but not lower than 100 feet (30 m), and a runway visual range not less than 1,150 feet (350 m).

* Category III is further subdivided

o Category III A - A precision instrument approach and landing with:

+ a) a decision height lower than 100 feet (30 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and

+ :unsure: a runway visual range not less than 655 feet (200 m).

o Category III B - A precision instrument approach and landing with:

+ a) a decision height lower than 50 feet (15 m) above touchdown zone elevation, or no decision height; and

+ a runway visual range less than 2,625 feet (800 m) but not less than 165 feet (50 m).

o Category III C - A precision instrument approach and landing with no decision height and no runway visual range limitations. A Category III C system is capable of using an aircraft's autopilot to land the aircraft and can also provide guidance along the runway surface.

 

In each case a suitably equipped aircraft and appropriately qualified crew are required. For example, Cat IIIc requires a fail-operational system, Cat I does not. A Head-Up Display which allows the pilot to perform aircraft maneuvers rather than an automatic system is considered as fail-operational. Cat I relies only on altimeter indications for decision height, whereas Cat II and Cat III approaches use radar altimeter to determine decision height.[2]

 

An ILS is required to shut down upon internal detection of a fault condition as mentioned in the monitoring section. With the increasing categories, ILS equipment is required to shut down faster since higher categories require shorter response times. For example, a Cat I localizer must shutdown within 10 seconds of detecting a fault, but a Cat III localizer must shut down in less than 2 seconds.[1]