The fighting in Georgia

[Maiden22]

 

I had better apply for my FAC prety soon me thinks!!!!

 

kdubya - where did you download this from?

 

Ice, let us know how it goes. It would be interesting to see if plod regards "Shooting Russians and Iranians" as a good reason .

 

Robert

[Ice]

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[Mungler]

I have no view one way or the other.

 

I was originally thinking of a post along the lines of "we should have learnt by now that we should keep our noses out of other countries' business unless it really suits us and we plan for the consequences".

 

Then I thought that the reason Hitler got such a good head start was because no Country wanted to get involved or stick their noses in.

 

Then I thought that if we were picking out despotic regimes then there's a few obvious candidates probably further up the list.

 

Which brings me back to where I started.

[bignoel]

is there something going on i should know about ?

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[bullet boy]

Hasnt the world gone MAD!!!!!!

[Ice]

This could escalate into a real big ******* problem!!!!

[MJN]

lastest news is the russian president has called for a cessation.

[Evilv]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it on here. I hope either the Georgians are capable of defending themselves or that they get help from the outside world (unlikely). The Russians have been bullying almost every nation on it's borders that can't fight back against them. It's a pity NATO won't get involved, make Russia think for a second that they can't do as they please just because they're the biggest bear in the local woods at the moment. Bah, bloody Russians.

 

Yeah John - that's just what we want, a war with Russia. Will you be going yourself, or is it other people and their sons you want to die? I have three sons who would be eligible and two nephews currently serving in Afghanistan. How about you?

 

We had a fantastic opportunity with Russia in the 1990s and we, or more precisely the Americans humiliated them, by psuhing NATo and missile defence right into their backyard. Why is it that we can invade countries half a world away 'with justification' and Russia can not step into a war situation on its very doorstep involving its own citizens coming under attack without being denounced for monsters. Always remember that in this matter Saakashvile sent forces into South Ossettia and created mayhem there among Russian citizens in a province who want nothing to do with his corrupt and villainous government. The casualties among the south Ossettians from Saakashvili's attack amount to around 2000 dead civilians, and 35,000 displaced, by the way, but maybe that's OK eh? Sarkosville is a villain, who provoked the whole problem and thought NATO would step in and protect him. Well it didn't and neither should it.

 

By the way, as an Irishman, I am sure that the situation of the South Ossettians wish to escape from the control of a larger and more powerful neighbour - Georgia, unpopular among its patriotic people, will not escape you as a parallel of that of Eire and Great Britain in the early to late twentieth century. I think you may be backing the wrong side old chap.

 

 

Independent article on causes of the conflict

Edited August 12, 2008 by Evilv

[Dr W]

As I heard it Russians were supporting militia in the area in order to destablise the region.

 

I don't think you can make it as clear cut as you are trying to say either,

[Trussman]

I don't support either the Russians or the Georgians. I do feel sorry for the civilians who are caught in the middle

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[Evilv]

It may well not be clear cut and with one side entirely innocent and the other totally at fault, but I'll tell you this, had this been happening on the edge of the USA, they would have done exactly as the Russians did. Great powers or even once great powers have natural sphere's of influence that tey regard as THEIR TURF. People who start trouble right on their doorstep can expect them to come rampaging out and they will get trampled. EVERYONE should know this and just as the Russians would have no business becoming militarily involved in a territorial dispute between the UK and Ireland over the status of Ulster, neither do we in teh west have any business at all other than some finger wagging, over what happens in Georgia. I happen to believe that the Americans have been very stupid in meddling in Russia's back yard. Military conflict with Russia is unthinkable for Nato, I mean I ask you - we can't even handle some raggey ar sed brigands in Afghanistan, so how would we do there?

 

Military conflict is in almost all cases a bad idea and often hideously so in situations that don't involve us fighting for our own territory, or that of our immediate neighbours in defence. We should not get involved in protecting the Baltic Republics, nasty little countries in teh Middle East or anywhere else that is not a vital interest of our own. I have relatives in Afghanistan and I'd hate to see them blown away over some stupid plan to make the wildest ladn on the planet into a representative democracy. It ain't going to happen, and neither am I going to get excited if Saakosvili gets a black eye after launchung full scale mimlitary attacks on Russian Militia in a part of his territory that doesn't want him and mostly wants to be Russian. That would be as foolhardy as the UK fighting America to try to keep N Ireland British when the majority of its inhabitants wanted to become independent. Totally stupid in other words.

[al4x]

sounds a little like events in Afghanistan over the last 20 years or so!

 

I'm not sure where I stand on it, reading a few views on the bbc from people actually involved and in the area did make me think it wasn't as clear cut as at first thought

[Ice]

Sorry but :blink: on this one.

 

There will never be a soildier on soildier war with russia, its not in our intentions or anyone else's id imagen, what there could be is another cold war, we point our WMD they point theirs and basically the first person to shut up loses.

 

However what is concerning me is the increased so called probing by russian aircraft into british aerospace in order to gain information on the RAF response times, this is something to think about, why all of a sudden has russia decided to start probing us again?

 

NATO need to step in on this one id agree, they cant be left to bully their neck of the woods simpily on the basis that it is the biggest wolf, someone needs to put a stop to it...

[Evilv]

It may well not be clear cut and with one side entirely innocent and the other totally at fault, but I'll tell you this, had this been happening on the edge of the USA, they would have done exactly as the Russians did. Great powers or even once great powers have natural sphere's of influence that they regard as THEIR TURF. People who start trouble right on their doorstep can expect them to come rampaging out and they will get trampled. EVERYONE should know this and just as the Russians would have no business becoming militarily involved in a territorial dispute between the UK and Ireland over the status of Ulster, neither do we in the west have any business at all other than some finger wagging, over what happens in Georgia. I happen to believe that the Americans have been very stupid in meddling in Russia's back yard. Military conflict with Russia is unthinkable for NATO, I mean I ask you - we can't even handle some raggey ar sed brigands in Afghanistan, so how would we do there?

 

Military conflict is in almost all cases a bad idea and often hideously so in situations that don't involve us fighting for our own territory, or that of our immediate neighbours in defence. We should not get involved in protecting the Baltic Republics, nasty little countries in the Middle East or anywhere else that is not a vital interest of our own. I have relatives in Afghanistan and I'd hate to see them blown away over some stupid plan to make the willdest land, most Godforsaken land on the planet into a representative democracy. It ain't going to happen, and neither am I going to get excited if Saakosvili gets a black eye after launching full scale military attacks on Russian Militia in a part of his territory that doesn't want him and mostly wants to be Russian. That would be as foolhardy as the UK fighting America to try to keep N Ireland British when the majority of its inhabitants wanted to become independent. Totally stupid in other words.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

By the way the references to Ireland were not a cheap jibe at all. I happen to believe that the UK's interference in Ireland at the behest of a bunch of radical Ulsterites has been a disaster. In the same way, if South Ossettians see their future with Russia, so be it. Now you may think I'm being inconsistent, but I'm not. The groups who want to escape some colonial power like in one case the UK or in another 'Mother Russia' had better take care before they start military operations against them or their proxies. Neither power will allow military attacks to go unpunished. It is one thing to say that South Ossettia, ought to be able to free itself of Georgian influence, or that Georgia should of Russia's, but it is quite another to think that Russia will allow a Georgian assault on a Russian population in break away South Ossettia to go unpunished. It is simple 'real politigué' that Russia would always have responded as it did, and it is nothing to do with us. Can you imagine the implications on us and our economies of any kind of war with Russia?

 

 

Also - now I'm on my ranting box - since there are only about three countries in NATO prepared to actually fight anybody (USA, UK & Canada) in the wars we are already involved in, the call for NATO involvement is rather amusing. We seem to have a lot of NATO countries that like to have their people do admin roles. They won't even supply helicopters to us Brits in the Afghan badlands. NATO is full of big mouthed hangers on - lots to say, but no stomach for a fight themselves.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Evilv

[Evilv]

There will never be a soildier on soildier war with russia, its not in our intentions or anyone else's id imagen, what there could be is another cold war, we point our WMD they point theirs and basically the first person to shut up loses.

 

However what is concerning me is the increased so called probing by russian aircraft into british aerospace in order to gain information on the RAF response times, this is something to think about, why all of a sudden has russia decided to start probing us again?

 

NATO need to step in on this one id agree, they cant be left to bully their neck of the woods simpily on the basis that it is the biggest wolf, someone needs to put a stop to it...

 

 

Well what will we do when they shut off our gas?

 

Russia is belligerent, I agree. The only thing we can do with them besides getting back into a cold war situation is to isolate them economically. But that won't work because energy - something they have more of then Saudi Arabia is the most in demand product on the planet. If we don't buy it, the Chinese will. So where do we go?

 

I think the resurgence of belligerent Russia is a result at least in part of the humiliation of Russia by the west in Yeltzin's time. There is a pattern here: Germany humiliated by the treaty of Versailles in 1918 and up comes Hitler. Russia humiliated by America and intrusion into its vassal states by NATO in the period between 1990 and 2000, and Putin gets tough as his economy rises through energy sales. Russia's wealth and power can only increase as they sell more and more hydrocarbons to a world that will pay nay price to get what they have.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Evilv

[dazza]

Why don't you just keep Ulster and it's politics out of this. England was glad of 'radical Ulsterites' during both World Wars. Remember the Somme? Theres plenty of Ulster blood being spilt on Afghani and Iraqi soil at the minute. Answer Britians call eh.....

[dustyfox]

Why don't you just keep Ulster and it's politics out of this. England was glad of 'radical Ulsterites' during both World Wars. Remember the Somme? Theres plenty of Ulster blood being spilt on Afghani and Iraqi soil at the minute. Answer Britians call eh.....

 

Ah but did you know Ireland was looking after German orphans during WW2?

 

Let them fight and resolve this dispute with Georgia but if they take any other country we need to do something.

[JohnGalway]

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Edited September 3, 2009 by JohnGalway

[dazza]

Why don't you just keep Ulster and it's politics out of this. England was glad of 'radical Ulsterites' during both World Wars. Remember the Somme? Theres plenty of Ulster blood being spilt on Afghani and Iraqi soil at the minute. Answer Britians call eh.....

 

Ah but did you know Ireland was looking after German orphans during WW2?

 

Let them fight and resolve this dispute with Georgia but if they take any other country we need to do something.

 

Southern Ireland was also refuelling German U boats and providing visual markers for German bombers.

[Evilv]

I brought in Ulster as an illustration of how not to treat minority peoples. Ulster is a done deal now between the UK and Ireland and it ws solved by discussion, not invasions or warfare.

 

There is some sensible commentary on here about this subject:

 

BBC - Have your say

[Ice]

"Russia's WTO entry is on ice."

 

I was wondering what was getting me down recently, please could we do something to get it off? as its getting bloody heavy!!!

[Evilv]

Yeah - I see why you have John Wayne as your avatare now. Growing some balls and other macho references are not what is needed.

 

Russia is nasty. I know. Russia has vast energy reserves and is selling huge amounts of gas into Europe- we go elsewhere, but God knows where that is.

 

We should stop interfering with Russian satellites and leave well alone in my view. I don't care a F for these places and their ambitions. I have a strong interest in a continued stable and prosperous UK and Europe. We can talk to the Russians and we can if practicable stop buying their product to run our power stations and heating systems, but we can not seriously seek out conflict with them.

 

See I don't accept that the Georgian side started the trouble. I believe the Russians wanted this war, so they could punish Georgia for going against Russias demands. Thereby providing a harsh reminder of the past to countries like Ukraine etc. Basically saying, we're back, if you don't do as we say then you're done for. I don't accept for one second that the Western world should let that kind of bullying go on without some type of intervention wherever in the world. The West has become too reliant on dodgy regimes. Russia has most of Europe over a (oil/gas) barrel and China owns a lot of US debt. Both of these situations need to change not become more entrenched as the Russians would like - by Russia controlling a government in Georgia which in turn would control the only major pipeline (BTC) in the region not at the moment under Russian control. I would have no problem with Ireland building Nuclear power plants to supply us and other countries with power, I have no problem with the Irish army (such as it is - we do have a great ranger wing) joining more international forces such as Nato. I think democratic countries do have an obligation to support one another, especially in neighbourhoods that are less than friendly. Grabbing the biggest tube of KY on the shelf and bending over for the likes of Russia will only make the situation worse, bullies always become bolder the more they're let away with. The good things I've heard are Poland and the Baltic states are going to veto any Russia EU co-operative agreement, G8 seriously talking about reverting to the G7 again so excluding Russia, and apparently it's WTO entry is on ice. I don't for a second see the point in enriching Russia so they can start more wars like this and regain former dominance in the region. Remember, all through out history political influences come and go and none are set in stone. Europe needs to grow some balls and become more energy independent, and more independent in general.