activeviii Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 Just a quick one. Can I go out shooting with a friend and use his rifle whilst he is there. I have no licence but waiting for things to be sorted. so when the FLO comes out to see me can i say i have been using a friends HMR with his guidance or is this a no no. I dont want a HMR or LR yet but i do want an FAC air rifle asap. i cant shot with a rimmy on 2 of my permissions as one has birds that the game keeper dosnt want spooking and the other has horses and i dont want to upset them. same goes for a shotgun as the bang is a no no. so as im waiting for the FLO to come and have a chat about my SGC i thought i would drop the hint about an FAC air rifle. I want it for rabbits, carrion and pigeons. the birds i can decoy in but not always get a pin on them and the rabbits are always just that little to far for a 12Flb. or am i best to say nothing about my friends gun and ask how long i have to wait befor i can apply as i want it as a roaming ticket. thanks for your input guys. regards Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 say nothing mate just speak when spoken too and your interested in vermin control (rabbits dig holes which is no good for horses legs)i shoot on paddocks with FAC air approx 7acres each site tell him your intersted in 30/40 LBS FAC air that should do the crow ,pigeons,etc nicely. good look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p-a-s Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 sorry mate its a no no you would both be breaking the law unless he was the land owner i believe.someone correct me if i am wrong if the flo that comes to see you asks what experience have you got on shooting fac just ask, can i be honest without naming anyone. then state you have been out with a mate and after observing and being taught by said mate ie backstop/safety etc tell him that you have used your mates fac, be as honest with flo as you can nothing can come back to haunt you then.he will respect your wishes on your fac request and see that you are also honest.if an aplication is going to be refused or down graded the most likely reason will be down to lack of experience but MOST of all dont drop your mate in the brown stuff also you say you dont want a hmr or lr yet you have got 5 years to fill these slots if you have land that is or could be passed for these or cf calibres then apply for them on your first application,as its **** law you dont need lr,cf,hmr today but you might next week and why keep paying £26 for variations hope i havent babbled on to much and this info helps you out. paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radio1ham Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 well you could get a little .22 rimfire with sound mod every bit just as quiet as an air rifle i use one at one of the farms i shoot on and there are race horses there aswell so i know what you mean when you say you dont want to spook them and the owner would not want them spooked as they worth a lot of money and i wouldnt want to loose permission on that farm either any just a thought as you could pay a lot more for an airrifle as you could most likely get a good 2nd hand .22 rimfire which i dont think you will regret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted August 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 glad i asked the questions now, thanks for the input gents. I have been shooting air for about 30 yrs i'm out using the AA S410 .177 at the moment due to his, and wife's, selfishness in having a baby. it's just out of order. how do the FLO expect one to get experience in the shooting for FAC's if you cant use fire one unless you have a ticket. i have 2600 acres to shoot on at the moment, it is all approved at the moment, different county to me but still aproved. it's a shoot so no banging unless you pay. i'll stick to the air rifle as the pellets are cheaper than rimmy rounds.hehe. on two other permission's the problem is that the rabbits are in a little strip of land, 200 yrds long and with house on one side and stables on other. as there both just up the road i tend to just pop in on passing. I guess what i should really do is long net them both but its not the same now is it. I'll speak to the FLO when she comes out and tell her that i have been out loads over the last 4 years watching and learning about the back stops, public footpaths and safe shooting. thanks again gents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) Wait a minute! Im like pretty sure (95%+) there is NOTHING WRONG with useing someone elses rifle shotgun or whatever aslong as the firearm holder is present and on land they are approved for! I myself have been shooting a HMR with friends on their permission and when the FLO came for the chat about my SGC I even said I had been shooting with friends on their permission and he didnt say anything was wrong! If I wasnt so tired Id try and find the comments on it on the police website! Edit= BTW if its noise and such your worried about the 22 LR with a good silencer is quieter than a springer dont know about a PcP mind! Although around horses the 22 richochets could be a worry! Edited August 30, 2008 by Bigthug87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted August 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 It's hores that at stabled so its the noise thats the problem with it as i dont want to spook them with the bang. i have had a fair few with the PCP i use at the moment but there just the ones off the edges of the long runs. i have a meeting monday with FLO so i'll ask but being not so coy when talking i know i'll put my foot in it.lol. right off to mount a cabinet.................................................... .....not that sort of mount..........hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 With noise being the only concern then a 22 LR would do the job perfectly IMO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) You need to be clear about this fact: a .22LR with subsonic ammo and a moderator is quieter than almost any air rifle that I know of. It is astonishingly quiet. There are about 80 horses on one of my places. They run around whatever I am shooting, but that's horses for you - they like running and its why we keep them. How many people want to ride a cow? They don't run much, horses love running. These horses come up and see me while I'm shooting, then they run off and come back again. Also, a cz 452 is probably cheaper than a decent pcp on its own and you don't need a charging mechanism (also expensive). The Eley subsonic LR round is pretty cheap unless you are shooting thousands of rabbits, and it will hit much harder. Add to this that it shoots much flatter and you will hit more rabbits at much longer ranges. The killing power of the eley sub is FAR higher than fac air. It is far more humane in my opinion and far more tolerant of minor inaccuracy of shot placement. A rabbit hit in the head, neck, shoulder or chest by a .22 hollow point is dead pretty quick if not instantly. Get the LR is my advice, unless you are shooting a tiny place, around buildings or right in amongst stock (which would be dangerous in itself). The LR is a little beast for ricochet though if the ground is stony or hard. I have a PCP and it has never been out since I got the LR. I now also have an HMR which is a little devil for 100 yard rabbits. Blows off their heads at 110 yards quite often - I mean they are really smashed wide open and inside out, though not always for some reason I don't understand. It's hores that at stabled so its the noise thats the problem with it as i dont want to spook them with the bang. i have had a fair few with the PCP i use at the moment but there just the ones off the edges of the long runs. i have a meeting monday with FLO so i'll ask but being not so coy when talking i know i'll put my foot in it.lol. right off to mount a cabinet.................................................... .....not that sort of mount..........hehe Edited August 30, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEINVISIBLESCARECROW Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 I've just re read this, if you've applied for a sgc but asking about FAC stuff did you realise you need a seperate application or have I missread. so as im waiting for the FLO to come and have a chat about my SGC i thought i would drop the hint about an FAC air rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 The FEO will be interested in whether you have any shooting experience. Tell him about ALL your experiences if he seems well adjusted and down to earth enough to accept that you have been taken under a shooters wing - but don't specifically identify the shooter. I did this on my first visit and was told "we know this happens even though we cant advise it" or words to that effect. I had only vaguely alluded to whereabouts this occurred. Displaying a knowledge of any round you want to shoot is more important to him than any fine point of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 (edited) Personally I'd be VERY careful about making an admission that you have shot someone elses rifle. I looked this up myself because I have grown up sons in their twenties who come with me the odd time. It looked to me that the landowner or occupier can allow someone unlicensed to shoot IN THEIR DIRECT SUPERVISION, but not anyone else. Now the term OCCUPIER might include someone who has shooting rights, but it might not so BEWARE you may be confessing to a criminal offence. If I were you, I would say that you have for a good while been accompanying a man who is a shooter and have watched and discussed his shooting with the rifle. This would be a good experience to have anyway since a sensible experienced shooter can pass on a lot of good experience without you ever shooting the rifle. I'm sure that a lot of FLOs being practical men may well tut and turn a blind eye to the fact that Joe Bloggs had fired off two shots at a rabbit under direct supervision, but they might not. If it is an offense, you could be charged on your own admissions. To my lads annoyance, I made them shoot with the air rifle since it looked like it was probably illegal to shoot the rimfire rifles. They asked but I wouldn't let them shoot the others. I think that one of them may well get himself licensed and use my rifles. It doesn't cost a lot and he can meet all the requirements. He will say that he has accompanied me many times and that we spend a lot of time pointing out the safe and unsafe shots and discussing what makes the difference. Even if he had shot the thing, I would warn him not to say that he had. There is not the slightest need to have fired a rifle anyway - what counts is that you have had an experienced older hand showing you what is safe and what is not, and that you thoroughly understand it. Edited August 30, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted August 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 I have been shooting shotgun for quite a while with friends under there guidance. this i can do without a SGC as long as im next to the holder of the SGC with his shotgun. i think that's right anyway.hehe. the said friend now cant go out shooting due to other commitments. because of this i have applied for my own SGC. only reason i had not applied before is i was put on anti depressants to make me sleep at night. broke my back up so was put on high dose painkillers that stopped me sleeping so the antidepressants were given to try and make me sleep. this didn't work so a new drug was given and all other tablets stopped. due to this reason i have not tried to apply as i didn't know if i could or not. if i want to keep shooting shotguns i have to get my own. reason i have said about the FAC is i want one as i want/need one as i have 2600 acre of shooting in one area that has game birds on it so no banging guns until November and i have another 2 farms that have either race horses or pet horses on and the owners don't want shotguns or banging guns to upset the horse's or riders but the rabbits are just out of reach with a 12ftlb air rifle so a FAC air rifle would have sorted out the problem but now im thinking a LR or HMR would sort the problem out as well. as the FLO is coming out on Monday i thought i could ask what the situation would be on a ticket or better still a roaming ticket. I was told that you don't get if you don't ask so i thought i would ask. lol. that's why the question about the FAC and the law on whether i could or could not shoot someone else's rifle when i have no ticket. Last thing i want to do though is get anyone in trouble. so i will talk about the shooting of shot guns and that i have been shooting for a fair few years with them but i will say that i need a FAC for vermin and pest control as my friend that use to do it with me accompanying to learn can no longer shoot. can the FLO put a restriction on the shotgun i have. i seam to remember that someone one here could only use a two shot for a while. I want a 3 shot auto, browning gold in camo duro-touch to be truthful. hehe. see i shill have a back problem but the cartridge cycling or the auto take the kick out the gun and means i don't suffer nextday. Oh my! reading this back, it looks like im talking myself into a hole. Piggin eck. panicking now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 alrighty.....sorted..sort of. shotgun not a problem but have to wait for the chief to rubber stamp and then for them to send ticket out, can take a month. FAC. got told i should have applied at the same time as she couldn't see a problem other that the cabinet wouldn't be big enough to take a scope rifle. that will be sorted. I asked about a roaming ticket and got told that they is no roaming ticket anymore as all land needs to be proofed. only people that can use a gun almost anywhere is a professional shooter as in a pest controller or deer hunter type. all the land i want the gun on are more or less ok anyway and have been given the all clear. wish i had applied at the same time now. oh well i will just play with the pigeons, crows and honkers for a bit i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) alrighty.....sorted..sort of. shotgun not a problem but have to wait for the chief to rubber stamp and then for them to send ticket out, can take a month. FAC. got told i should have applied at the same time as she couldn't see a problem other that the cabinet wouldn't be big enough to take a scope rifle. that will be sorted. I asked about a roaming ticket and got told that they is no roaming ticket anymore as all land needs to be proofed. only people that can use a gun almost anywhere is a professional shooter as in a pest controller or deer hunter type. all the land i want the gun on are more or less ok anyway and have been given the all clear. wish i had applied at the same time now. oh well i will just play with the pigeons, crows and honkers for a bit i think. Ask them to hold it and apply for the fac too. They will charge you £60 for the two. I did exactly that last time I renewed my shotty cert. When the wench came out to see my gun cabinet (I had been keeping my gun at a mates place since I gave up my firearms cert and moved house in 1983) so she needed to see my security. I mentioned that I fancied getting another .22 and she said, 'Well you should have applied for both right now and it would be cheaper. I downloaded the forms, got the referee sorted with the form, did the photos, and took them down to the police headquarters the next day and had the two certs for £60 in 8 days. Edited September 1, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
activeviii Posted September 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 i did say this to her but she said i need some of the land vetted and that can take a couple of months and then the chief will have to stamp it but before that it has to go to admin to run the paperwork then to finance to cash the cheque then over to her office in a different town then she will see it. she said to get the SGC 1st so that i have something to bang with then whilst having fun with that i should apply for FAC as time would fly whilst having fun. if i put on the ticket that i have just done the SGC they would date them the same so next time it would be done together but i was to allow 3 months for renewal. i dont want to rock the boat to much but its taking the pee really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sick Old Man Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 If you are a shotgun certificate holder and are over 21, you can with the relevant permission let someone who is over 14 use a shotgun under your direct supervision. If you are a Section 1 Firearms Certificate holder you may not let another person use your weapon even under direct supervision, a person may carry it for you ( Unloaded ) take care, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 If you are a shotgun certificate holder and are over 21, you can with the relevant permission let someone who is over 14 use a shotgun under your direct supervision. If you are a Section 1 Firearms Certificate holder you may not let another person use your weapon even under direct supervision, a person may carry it for you ( Unloaded ) take care, Chris That looks like good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 If you are a Section 1 Firearms Certificate holder you may not let another person use your weapon even under direct supervision, a person may carry it for you ( Unloaded ) Curiously this has never been pointed out to me by my FEO even though in the past I have been in this very position of using gun under direct supervision and not being licensed for it. Infact the only comments mad with regards to this were that it would have been wrong under the right to shoot on the land and not being under the employ of the land owner / occupier. I would be very grateful if you could post a link or direct me to where I might read up on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sick Old Man Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I must apologise and admit that I can not find the bit about gun bearers being able to carry a Sect 1 firearm for the certificate holder, but this link will help with finding it. Like all legal stuff its a bit of a drag, I guess Mungler can make sense of it all. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Act..._2#pt1-pb1-l1g1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I must apologise and admit that I can not find the bit about gun bearers being able to carry a Sect 1 firearm for the certificate holder, but this link will help with finding it. Like all legal stuff its a bit of a drag, I guess Mungler can make sense of it all. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Act..._2#pt1-pb1-l1g1 Found it: 11 Sports, athletics and other approved activities(1)A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belonging to another person holding a certificate under this Act may, without himself holding such a certificate, have in his possession that firearm or ammunition under instructions from, and for the use of, that other person for sporting purposes only. By virtue of the Act which is hard to digest, I have not found anything yet to suggest that you can use someone elses rifle in their presence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) I must apologise and admit that I can not find the bit about gun bearers being able to carry a Sect 1 firearm for the certificate holder, but this link will help with finding it. Like all legal stuff its a bit of a drag, I guess Mungler can make sense of it all. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Act..._2#pt1-pb1-l1g1 Found it: 11 Sports, athletics and other approved activities(1)A person carrying a firearm or ammunition belonging to another person holding a certificate under this Act may, without himself holding such a certificate, have in his possession that firearm or ammunition under instructions from, and for the use of, that other person for sporting purposes only. By virtue of the Act which is hard to digest, I have not found anything yet to suggest that you can use someone elses rifle in their presence. I was looking at this a while ago with a view to letting my youngest son (aged 21) come with me and shoot under supervision. I always make him use the air rifle, but I thought maybe he could with me standing over him and directing him shoot the 22LR. I could find nothing that said it was OK, except for landowners and their servants, so I told him to pump up the airgun and use that. The chances of being caught doing it are obviously next to very remote, but I don't thnik it is legal so I wouldn't do it. I told him I would pay for a firearms certificate for him and that he should apply for one to use my rifles. We'll probably do that as it's only £50 - not a lot to allow you to go shooting with your son really. Edited September 3, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I could find nothing that said it was OK, except for landowners and their servants, so I told him to pump up the airgun and use that. Having re-read section 1 and section 11 I can only conclude that even the "servants of" are only permitted to use the landowners shotgun not firearm (as refered to by the act). Am I missing something, I know people who would tend to agree that using a rifle in the presence of the owner is legal. It also raises the question about rifle ranges too. Section 11 states that you do not need a certificate to shoot anything under .23 diameter calibre, what of larger calibres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilv Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) I could find nothing that said it was OK, except for landowners and their servants, so I told him to pump up the airgun and use that. Having re-read section 1 and section 11 I can only conclude that even the "servants of" are only permitted to use the landowners shotgun not firearm (as refered to by the act). I'm sure something is missing as I know many people who would agree that using a rifle in the presence of the owner is legal. It also raises the question about rifle ranges too. Section 11 states that you do not need a certificate to shoot anything under .23 diameter calibre, what of larger calibres? I know there are exceptions for Cadet Forces and such like things in schools - not that many schools have rifle ranges, but these kind sof situations are covered. I think the best thing would be to ask the police for advice. In the context of the thread's original direction, I strongly advise the guy not to admit to the FLO that he has been shooting someone's .22LR. I think he would be admitting to an offence, and as we know, mistaking the law, or being ignorant of it is not a valid defence. I'd edit your own post there too axe before I report you out of spite for editing out my swearing the other day and leaving other people's identical 'offences' alone. Example Edited September 3, 2008 by Evilv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Sick Old Man Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I have been in touch with a mate who is a right boffin on law, he stated that if you have written permission to shoot on the land, and that your written permission states that you may be in the company of a shooting partner you can then let a non certificate holder use your Firearm or shotgun providing they are old enough, this is the act, its Sect 16 (1) of the 1988 act 16 Borrowed rifles on private premises (1) A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if— (a) the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and ( the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate. (2) A person who by virtue of subsection (1) above is entitled without holding a firearm certificate to borrow and use a rifle in another person’s presence may also, without holding such a certificate, purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle and have it in his possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed if— (a) the firearm certificate held by that other person authorises the holder to have in his possession at that time ammunition for the rifle of a quantity not less than that purchased or acquired by, and in the possession of, the borrower; and ( the borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate. We would be calssed as " Servants " of the land owner, Mungler may clarify this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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