FAC. HMR. can I.

[Evilv]

I have been in touch with a mate who is a right boffin on law, he stated that if you have written permission to shoot on the land, and that your written permission states that you may be in the company of a shooting partner you can then let a non certificate holder use your Firearm or shotgun providing they are old enough, this is the act, its Sect 16 (1) of the 1988 act

 

16 Borrowed rifles on private premises (1) A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—

(a) the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and

( the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.

(2) A person who by virtue of subsection (1) above is entitled without holding a firearm certificate to borrow and use a rifle in another person’s presence may also, without holding such a certificate, purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle and have it in his possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed if—

(a) the firearm certificate held by that other person authorises the holder to have in his possession at that time ammunition for the rifle of a quantity not less than that purchased or acquired by, and in the possession of, the borrower; and

( the borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.

 

 

We would be calssed as " Servants " of the land owner, Mungler may clarify this

 

Wow - that's interesting. Thanks. You think the written permission should state that the shooter may be in the company of another? I can see how this works. The farmer in giving you permission to destroy vermin or whatever, does hold you in the position of an 'appointee' or in the terms of the act, a 'servant'. He has after all, asked that you do a job for him on the rabbits. That makes you a 'servant', BUT DOES THE RIFLE HAVE TO BELONG TO THE FARMER? It looks a bit like that. 16 Borrowed rifles on private premises

 

"(1) A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—"

Edited September 3, 2008 by Evilv

[Axe]

This is the trouble, to many acts and ammendments to look at. I was sure that there was something inplace for it. Despite this, I know someone that received a rather sharp telling off for having done this, by an FEO recently. It'll never be plain and simple.

 

(2) A person who by virtue of subsection (1) above is entitled without holding a firearm certificate to borrow and use a rifle in another person’s presence may also, without holding such a certificate, purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle and have it in his possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed if—

(a)the firearm certificate held by that other person authorises the holder to have in his possession at that time ammunition for the rifle of a quantity not less than that purchased or acquired by, and in the possession of, the borrower; and

(b)the borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.

 

Do you think the RFD would sell to you without said certificate?

[al4x]

it is one of those situations in firearms law that is as clear as mud. A side issue is you could have an FAC and technically you still shouldn't use someone elses rifle if it is correct. Though how does the situation work in Scotland and the likes with estate rifles that are borrowed for shooting deer.

Personally I've always gone under the once you have permission that you are carrying out a service for the owner and so become their servant, I've used other peoples firearms under this belief under supervision and in my case the owner of my permission has borrowed my gun in my supervision. Axe I cannot see any dealer selling amunition to anyone without a ticket in their name whatever any interpretation of the law says.

 

To my mind it is far better to use a firearm under supervision before going out and buying one and to do that it does need to be possible. From David BASC's comments in the past I seem to remember him just quoting the wording rather than giving a firm answer, to me its another of those things you take on your own back much like are foxes vermin and other lovely things that will be debated till the end of time

 

Interestingly just checked the FAQ's on my forces website

 

 

http://www.herts.police.uk/firearms_licens...ry_shooting.htm

 

to that it does skirt the subject quite well but does state you can use the occupiers rifles within the certificate holders conditions so depends whether you feel you are the ocupier and of a similar standing to a game warden as mentioned on there.

Edited September 3, 2008 by al4x

[Evilv]

it is one of those situations in firearms law that is as clear as mud. A side issue is you could have an FAC and technically you still shouldn't use someone elses rifle if it is correct. Though how does the situation work in Scotland and the likes with estate rifles that are borrowed for shooting deer.

Personally I've always gone under the once you have permission that you are carrying out a service for the owner and so become their servant, I've used other peoples firearms under this belief under supervision and in my case the owner of my permission has borrowed my gun in my supervision. Axe I cannot see any dealer selling amunition to anyone without a ticket in their name whatever any interpretation of the law says.

 

To my mind it is far better to use a firearm under supervision before going out and buying one and to do that it does need to be possible. From David BASC's comments in the past I seem to remember him just quoting the wording rather than giving a firm answer, to me its another of those things you take on your own back much like are foxes vermin and other lovely things that will be debated till the end of time

 

Interestingly just checked the FAQ's on my forces website

 

 

http://www.herts.police.uk/firearms_licens...ry_shooting.htm

 

to that it does skirt the subject quite well but does state you can use the occupiers rifles within the certificate holders conditions so depends whether you feel you are the ocupier and of a similar standing to a game warden as mentioned on there.

 

Occupier can mean a person with the shooting rights too. I can't remember where I saw that, but I have done.

 

 

On one of my shoots where there are a lot of small farms together which I have permission on a number of, the farmer said to me - 'That field next door to mine isn't mine, but I am renting it so shoot the rabbits.' He is the occupier I suppose, since he rents the land.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Evilv

[harv]

to that it does skirt the subject quite well but does state you can use the occupiers rifles within the certificate holders conditions so depends whether you feel you are the ocupier and of a similar standing to a game warden as mentioned on there.

 

Occupier can mean a person with the shooting rights too. I can't remember where I saw that, but I have done.

 

 

On one of my shoots where there are a lot of small farms together which I have permission on a number of, the farmer said to me - 'That field next door to mine isn't mine, but I am renting it so shoot the rabbits.' He is the occupier I suppose, since he rents the land.

 

i would be surprised if this is correct.

what is he renting the land for? shooting rights?

the estate i shoot on rents land to a neighbouring landowner for farming,he also runs a large shoot on his own land however he has no rights as have none of his employees to shoot or give permission to others on the rented land.

[Evilv]

i would be surprised if this is correct.

what is he renting the land for? shooting rights?

the estate i shoot on rents land to a neighbouring landowner for farming,he also runs a large shoot on his own land however he has no rights as have none of his employees to shoot or give permission to others on the rented land.

 

 

I doubt that Harve. I shoot on a few rented farms and the people have every right to control vermin and an actual duty in law as occupiers to control rabbits. They can also designate someone like me to do the job. I am sure this is right.

[harv]

i would be surprised if this is correct.

what is he renting the land for? shooting rights?

the estate i shoot on rents land to a neighbouring landowner for farming,he also runs a large shoot on his own land however he has no rights as have none of his employees to shoot or give permission to others on the rented land.

 

 

I doubt that Harve. I shoot on a few rented farms and the people have every right to control vermin and an actual duty in law as occupiers to control rabbits. They can also designate someone like me to do the job. I am sure this is right.

 

fine if you are happy with that then carry on.

so if the people who rent the farms refuse to shoot / snare the rabbits etc they are breaking the law?

i can tell you now if the person who rents our land was caught shooting on it they would be swiftly removed by our gamekeepers / police and would

probably be looking elsewhere the following year to rent. they have no rights whatsoever in law unless permission was given by the landowner.

[Evilv]

i would be surprised if this is correct.

what is he renting the land for? shooting rights?

the estate i shoot on rents land to a neighbouring landowner for farming,he also runs a large shoot on his own land however he has no rights as have none of his employees to shoot or give permission to others on the rented land.

 

 

I doubt that Harve. I shoot on a few rented farms and the people have every right to control vermin and an actual duty in law as occupiers to control rabbits. They can also designate someone like me to do the job. I am sure this is right.

 

fine if you are happy with that then carry on.

so if the people who rent the farms refuse to shoot / snare the rabbits etc they are breaking the law?

i can tell you now if the person who rents our land was caught shooting on it they would be swiftly removed by our gamekeepers / police and would

probably be looking elsewhere the following year to rent. they have no rights whatsoever in law unless permission was given by the landowner.

 

 

Rabbit Control Act - compalint form.

 

 

Pests Act 1954

[harv]

and does that apply to your scenario because it doesnt to mine!

[Evilv]

and does that apply to your scenario because it doesnt to mine!

 

All that I can tell you is that for more than thirty five years, tenant farmers have been asking me to wipe out their rabbits. I have at times met members of shooting syndicates whilst out controlling vermin, and though they didn't want me there, they had to admit that with the tenants permission to exterminate vermin, as long as I stuck to vermin, they could do nothing. There is a similar situation on a farm I have recently taken on. I have shot about sixty rabbits on it in the last six weeks. There is a gamekeeper who doesn't want me there, but he is powerless, because I have the authority of the tenant to control the rabbits which under the Pests Act 1954 he has an obligation to do. I currently shoot on four tenanted farms among others. None of these tenants have game rights, but they do have an obligation to control rabbits, or to authorise someone else to do it.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Evilv

[harv]

Fair enough, the vermin control on our estate is succesfully controlled in house therefore i suppose this situation does not occur as in yours.

[wannabefisher]

I just spoke to my FLO about this. He confirmed that you can only let a non certificate holder shoot if you are the land owner or their agent. Having permission to shoot on some else's land does NOT make you their agent

[Ferret Master]

Whereas my FEO said that in the eyes of Wiltshire police having shooting rights they look upon you as an occupier or agent.

 

FM

[Big_Sam]

And the feo's up here don't seem to bothered as long as you go easy on the 'nade launchers.

 

Ahh, I do like our firearms chaps, the most sensible and speedy I found so far (probably because its run by a woman!)

[wannabefisher]

Whereas my FEO said that in the eyes of Wiltshire police having shooting rights they look upon you as an occupier or agent.

 

FM

 

The way I have always known it, having the "shooting rights" on some land is most definitely not the same as having permission to shoot on that same land.

 

YMMV

[CharlieT]

Whereas my FEO said that in the eyes of Wiltshire police having shooting rights they look upon you as an occupier or agent.

 

FM

 

The way I have always known it, having the "shooting rights" on some land is most definitely not the same as having permission to shoot on that same land.

 

YMMV

 

You have hit the nail on the head.

 

The words that matter are "occupier" and "servant".

The occupier is the person who owns/rents the land or owns/rents the shooting or sporting rights under a legally binding agreement.

Servant being a person in the occupiers employ.

Whilst the term occupier has never been tested in law I do not believe someone who has been given permission by the occupier to shoot rabbits, for example, would themselves be classed as the occupier or for that matter the occupiers servant.

Remember that this exemption was introduced to allow stalkers to use estate rifles when accompanied by a gillie employed by the estate.