XR15

[pbickerd]

At some point I hope to buy an AR/M4 style black rifle.

 

Does anyone know anything about the XR15? - http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/firearms_m4.htm

 

It looks awesome but I wonder if it is actually any good? I did a bit of research on the company that makes it (Saber Defense Industries) and apparently they do make stuff for they US military. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing

 

Anyone had any experience of these or know how it would compare to something like a Bradley arms? Its a lot of cash to drop so I want to be sure..

 

Thanks guys,

[Dr_Scholl]

Saber makes great guns and accessories.

 

That being said, you've probably started a **** storm by bringing up military weapons.

[Mungler]

I had a .22 M4 carbine made by these lot http://www.southern-gun.co.uk/

 

Problem was it was fussy, wouldn't cyle sub sonics and unless you gave it a particular brand of ammo it would jam.

 

Also, taking it on the farm meant the farmer just laughed "toy" each time it came out (and jammed), and whilst I don't do any range work I think it would look a bit on the nutty side at a target shooting club.

 

So, in summary I wouldn't bother.

 

The later versions in .223 (straight pull) seem to work well, but then again there are lots of less flashy looking .223 rifles that work better still and for less money.

[pbickerd]

The ones in my link are in .223.

 

Whats the problem with military weapons? I know for £1000 if I wanted to buy something purely for target shooting I could get a lot better. I would probably get something like a remi 700 polce with a custom trigger and a reasonably good scope for 1k. But getting a 'black rifle' is, if we are honest, partly about the looks of the thing as well as accuracy. Its in the same league as a gsg5 but in a larger caliber, just something fun.

[Curly87]

i think that is the problem with military weapons, is that they are "just for fun" and not much use for anything else, and i think this is the view a lot of people have on them. i know my uncle wouldn’t be too happy if i turned up on his farm with one after some foxes!

 

but then again if you have that for of money for a bit of fun, go for it! id love to have a go with one just couldn’t justify spending that sort of money on a toy. Sounds a bit harsh but in my eyes that is all they are.

 

However sounds like you are pretty set on buying one already so make sure you give us pics and a full review when you do, I would be interested to see it perform

 

cheers,

Tim

Edited September 8, 2008 by Curly87

[pbickerd]

Its not harsh, it clearly is just a gadget / toy Doesnt stop people wanting them though !

 

Same with anything else, I drive an Impreza WRX, I could still get to work in the same time in a Corsa or Fiesta as Im stuck in traffic the whole time but the Impreza looks better (in my oppinion), its not as fuel efficient as the above mentioned but I enjoy driving it even if some people do think '****' when I drive past. The M4/AR15's are effectively the same thing.

[Wookie]

Very true, but... A rifle is just a tool that is designed to do a job. If it does the job well, then that's good.

 

I'd be interested to see a review of the XR15 too, but I'm very much against using that style of weapon in the UK for vermin control and normal shooting, mostly because we get bad press as it is and I don't like the idea of being mistaken for a potential terrorist.

 

If you want something for foxes, I am sure that they are better rifles out there for the job, but if you feel like buying a scooby-do-type rifle for the job, sod it. Just do it!

[Curly87]

fair play then mate i know where you are coming from, im just a poor student at the moment who cant afford f all

 

a good friend of mine who is only 25 just sold his evo 3, only to go out and buy an evo 7! such a amazingly fun car! i have no idea how he funds it, but he is a mechanic so that must help, he is should be heading out to the nurburgring race track at the end of the month so he can really try it out, the lucky ******!

[rarms]

>but I'm very much against using that style of weapon in the UK for vermin control and normal shooting, mostly because we >get bad press as it is and I don't like the idea of being mistaken for a potential terrorist.

 

 

 

How do you define: 'that style of weapon'?

[Dunkield]

I think we need to get a 'popcorn anyone?' emoticon

[casts_by_fly]

In this country, they aren't much more than novelties. However, in the states they are very useful tools. In a standard AR platform, you can hunt varmints (prairie dogs, groundhogs, etc), predators (coyotes, fox, etc), and big game all with the same gun by swapping out barrels. If you like to modify your guns with different accessories like handrails, stocks, grips, etc then the AR platform is one of the guns with the most aftermarket accessories available. For practice you can plink with either cheap 223 ammo or buy a 22LR upper and shoot that. Accuracy wise, a good barrel and smooth trigger will keep up with the best bolt hunting rifles.

 

Of course in this country, most of that doesn't apply. It takes more than a barrel swap to have a new gun on a whim. Variations effectively put an end to that. A semi-auto centerfire is a big no-no. Looks and tradition kill any other opportunities for use. Even if you still wanted one after all of that, they are prohibitively expensive to buy if you "just want to" own one.

 

thanks

rick

[Wookie]

rarms - By "that style of weapon" I mean a very close to military-looking one.

 

Think of it this way, you're out one day with that and a dog walker sees both you and it. It looks like an assault weapon.

 

If it was me, I'd prefer to avoid a meeting with plod and get something that looks like a sporting gun.

[pbickerd]

I would like to point out that I am purely a target shooter and I shoot only at shooting clubs including 1 military range where military weapons really do not look out of place. Even at my local club there are people shooting AR15's in .22 and 9mm. There was a guy there yesterday with a long barreled revolver in .357mag as well.

 

If you are only used to shooting things in a field you may not realise what kind of weapons people out there are using. There are people arround with barret .50BMG's and all sorts.

 

EDIT - and I agree that anyone using 'this sort of weapon' out in the field is being a little irresponsible if there is any risk of being seen by a member of the public,

Edited September 8, 2008 by pbickerd

[Dunkield]

In this country, they aren't much more than novelties. However, in the states they are very useful tools. In a standard AR platform, you can hunt varmints (prairie dogs, groundhogs, etc), predators (coyotes, fox, etc), and big game all with the same gun by swapping out barrels. If you like to modify your guns with different accessories like handrails, stocks, grips, etc then the AR platform is one of the guns with the most aftermarket accessories available. For practice you can plink with either cheap 223 ammo or buy a 22LR upper and shoot that. Accuracy wise, a good barrel and smooth trigger will keep up with the best bolt hunting rifles.

 

Of course in this country, most of that doesn't apply. It takes more than a barrel swap to have a new gun on a whim. Variations effectively put an end to that. A semi-auto centerfire is a big no-no. Looks and tradition kill any other opportunities for use. Even if you still wanted one after all of that, they are prohibitively expensive to buy if you "just want to" own one.

 

thanks

rick

The question may be worn out, but that is the best answer to it I have ever read

[rarms]

>rarms - By "that style of weapon" I mean a very close to military-looking one.

 

90% of the guns we use today evolved from Military weapons.

 

The Anti's see a gun, they have made their mind up already. A Black gun won't change it!

Edited September 8, 2008 by rarms

[Wookie]

Granted, but there's a world of difference between an AR15 with a box mag and a sporter style with wood and no visible mag. One is a rifle, the other could be seen as a machine gun in the eyes of a luddite.

[Agentfunky]

Been watching this thread with a bit of interest and feel that there is some considerable naivity on the part of some of the posters. Firstly I am a competitive shooter and compete in many different competitions out to ranges up to 1000yds. I am also a keen clay shooter, and have a lot of land where I have shooting rights for shotguns and rifles of different calibres for the purposes of pest/vermin contol.

 

I would like to make the following points in an effort to help raise awareness for all our benefit.

 

1) The AR-15 is a rifle that has been used by recreational and competitive shooters for some time in this country. There are several nationwide, and indeed world wide competitive disciplines for which the AR-15 is ideally suited due to it's configuration and round capacity, Highpower Rifle, Practical Rifle and Civilian Service Rifle, Tactical Rifle etc. If you are unfamiliar with these disciplines then please Google them, I'm sure you will find them interesting.

 

2) Most people who own an AR-15 do so to enable them to compete in the above competitions, myself included. I would suggest that your impression that these rifles are shot by people who "just want one" is not correct, at over £1000 for a decent AR15 rifle, before optics and magazines, match trigger, mounts etc these firearms are not expensive toys but serious kit for a discerning shooter. However, if somone buys one for novelty value, or even for it's looks then that is their choice, and who are any of us to criticise them for it?

 

3) Those people who shoot these rifles, myself included, in many cases do use them for foxing. They are accurate, portable, versatile and effective in this role. I use a Reflex T8 Sound moderatorwith mine for foxing. That is not to say that I wouldn't be equally capable of shooting foxes with a sporting .223 rifle. I just don't see the point in purchasing two rifles of the same calibre when one will do both jobs more effectively. (one load to reload for etc.)

 

4) When out with my "that type of weapon" I have encountered members of the public, most of whom have either said hello and carried on their way or have stopped us to ask what we are doing and have shown a great deal of interest in the rifles. Furthermore, the Firearms Licensing Section of my Police Force who have issued my FAC know why I have the rifle and have passed it for hunting use.

 

5) I feel more than a little dissapointed that fellow shooters would feel the need to criticise another shooter's choice of gun. Our sport is under enough pressure without dissent from within. To single out a particular type of firearm and criticise it's use without consideration for it's benefits or applications is both unfair and short sighted. I would have thought that to stand together and see protect our sport from those that would seek to break it up and stop it would be a far more constructive past time.

 

I hope this post has been of some use to those people who lack familiarity with the AR-15. Maybe one day you might fancy coming along to a competitive shoot and trying out an AR-15 rather than criticising it's use and jumping to ill founded conclusions about people who use them.

 

BTW - Shotguns are still the favourite weapon of choice for the career armed criminal....so before anybody starts to criticise the AR as a "that type of weapon" be aware of what statistics might say about your own chosen tool for shooting.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Agentfunky

[JoKerr]

In this country, they aren't much more than novelties.

Only if you don't know how to shoot one

 

However, in the states they are very useful tools. In a standard AR platform, you can hunt varmints (prairie dogs, groundhogs, etc), predators (coyotes, fox, etc), and big game all with the same gun by swapping out barrels. If you like to modify your guns with different accessories like handrails, stocks, grips, etc then the AR platform is one of the guns with the most aftermarket accessories available. For practice you can plink with either cheap 223 ammo or buy a 22LR upper and shoot that. Accuracy wise, a good barrel and smooth trigger will keep up with the best bolt hunting rifles.

 

Of course in this country, most of that doesn't apply.

Why not?

 

It takes more than a barrel swap to have a new gun on a whim. Variations effectively put an end to that. A semi-auto centerfire is a big no-no. Looks and tradition kill any other opportunities for use. Even if you still wanted one after all of that, they are prohibitively expensive to buy if you "just want to" own one.

 

thanks

rick

 

I agree with the "just to own one" quote but that should be said for all firearms as far as licensing goes. Other than that I see nothing in your argument than pure prejudice probably from ignorance of type than any real facts.

 

The AR platform is extremely versatile even in the 'straight-pull' for for the UK market. It is capable of very good accuracy with iron (as issued) sights. In the high power target discipline I think possibly only a Tubb (a rifle that owes a lot to the AR for styling) has beaten an AR in the championships. ARs regularly (but not always) beat all comers in the PR league and the Sporting Rifle match at the Phoenix has been won on many occasions with an AR. Civilian Service Rifle matches are won the great majority of times by an AR. Sub MOA accuracy is easily achievable.

 

Not bad or a plinker. If it can regularly beat what you might call a 'proper' rifle, then I'll take an AR every time. Do you compete? It is only in competition with all the pressures and demands put upon the shooter and rifle that a rifle's true potential can be judged.

 

Off the range, it is an ideal platform to build a fox rifle, the M4 style is very light, very accurate and mine has taken many foxes where I wouldn't take my 243 'proper' gun. I have just as much trouble from passers by whatever rifle I take out with me. Some people just see 'gun', must be 'nutter' with it, doesn't matter if it's my Sako243, Ruger 10/22, AR M4 style, or even my 12ga.

 

We'll have bad press whatever, we were all found guilty after Dunblane when we were told to keep our heads down and not upset anyone, and look what good that did. The more we hide the more we'll be marginalised and the more the general (non-shooting) public will be ignorant of the facts.

Edited September 8, 2008 by JoKerr

[pbickerd]

I want to try to get this back on track after tha drama..

 

To the two guys that already shoot AR's. Do you have any input on my original question? Have you ever come across the XR15-M4 linked in my first post? It is a fair amount of cash to drop so I want to know if this will be worth it or whether I would be better getting something from Bradley Arms or SGC, or somewhere else that I havent heard of? Recomendations would be welcomed.

[JoKerr]

The Sabre rifle is a good product. It is as standard to a M4 as you're likely to get in the UK. The price is a little bit high but not by much, I've seen them go for just under £1000, but the way the pound is going this is probably the right price now. They were making AR style rifles long before they bought the US company and the associated military contracts (I think that's mainly for barrels and mounting system, though).

 

I'd be tempted to get the 1:7" twist barrel (try to get the 14.5" barrel in 1:7 twist) rather than the 1:9", but if you're not gonna shoot bullet heavier than 69gn (or possibly 77gn, they might work) then you'll be OK with the 1:9".

 

The trigger will be a little on the heavy side but can be sorted quite easily with a stone and some prudent spring bending if you know what you are doing, or a replacement drop-in set if you don't.

 

Other than that you'll be good to go.

 

Bradley Arms does a good rifle, but I'm not sure if Mark has any standard rifles in at the moment, give him a ring.

Same with SGC, their rifles are very good but usually a bit more expensive than elsewhere and not very often can you get a standard rifle. You'll be spending extra on lots of bells and whistles you might not know exist let alone know if you need.

[njc110381]

In this country, they aren't much more than novelties. However, in the states they are very useful tools. In a standard AR platform, you can hunt varmints (prairie dogs, groundhogs, etc), predators (coyotes, fox, etc), and big game all with the same gun by swapping out barrels. If you like to modify your guns with different accessories like handrails, stocks, grips, etc then the AR platform is one of the guns with the most aftermarket accessories available. For practice you can plink with either cheap 223 ammo or buy a 22LR upper and shoot that. Accuracy wise, a good barrel and smooth trigger will keep up with the best bolt hunting rifles.

 

Of course in this country, most of that doesn't apply. It takes more than a barrel swap to have a new gun on a whim. Variations effectively put an end to that. A semi-auto centerfire is a big no-no. Looks and tradition kill any other opportunities for use. Even if you still wanted one after all of that, they are prohibitively expensive to buy if you "just want to" own one.

 

thanks

rick

The question may be worn out, but that is the best answer to it I have ever read

 

I should add that we both know someone who insists on bringing his AR15 to my permission for foxing every time he turns up! You can't take that boy anywhere! :look:

[sandymangina]

i think that is the problem with military weapons, is that they are "just for fun" and not much use for anything else, and i think this is the view a lot of people have on them. i know my uncle wouldn⦣8364;™t be too happy if i turned up on his farm with one after some foxes!

 

but then again if you have that for of money for a bit of fun, go for it! id love to have a go with one just couldn⦣8364;™t justify spending that sort of money on a toy. Sounds a bit harsh but in my eyes that is all they are.

 

However sounds like you are pretty set on buying one already so make sure you give us pics and a full review when you do, I would be interested to see it perform :look:

 

cheers,

Tim

 

Many of us use AR15 derivatives to shoot both Highpower and CSR competitions in the UK so apart from being great fun they are also perfect for purpose and highly accurate. I challenge anyone on this forum who thinks he / she can outshoot a competant shooter of an AR at 200, 300 and 600 yards, standing, sitting and prone both slow and rapid fire using iron sights (you can use any scope you choose) you'd still get your **** kicked.

 

Some people use military style rifles, some prefer wooden guns, some use both but at the end of the day we are all shooters and should all be pulling in the same direction. This sport is about personal preference and the fact that we have these choices is due to men quite a bit older than us (using military rifles, pistols and knives) killing for their country to give us that democracy. The fact that you are even able to own firearms in this country is a priviledge so any debate about who shoots what and how should be parked outside or kept to yourself and you should have a bit more respect for the lives of those who gave you the choice.

[Wookie]

I like the comment about iron sights being able to outshoot a scope at 600m and I for one would like to try that to see what happened. All I remember of shooting the SA80 with iron sights was that you were lucky to be able to see the target at 300m because of the front blade, let alone 600m.

 

As for sandy's comment:

The fact that you are even able to own firearms in this country is a priviledge so any debate about who shoots what and how should be parked outside or kept to yourself and you should have a bit more respect for the lives of those who gave you the choice.

 

I am well aware that holding a FAC is a privilege. It's why I spent a long time waiting for it and jumping through a lot of hoops. It's also why I make a lot of effort to make sure I do not lose my privilege to hold a FAC. I also resent the way that you insinuate that I should lay off this argument for fear of insulting people that gave me the priviledge to hold a FAC.

 

For a start, the governement took away the "right" for us to hold firearms after incidents courtesy of nutters like Michael Ryan. Secondly, I respect the armed forces a lot. That's why I have a commissioning board in two weeks and why I'm, hopefully, joining the TA. Lastly, as I said before, a rifle is a tool. It's designed to do a job. Normally you choose a tool that is perfect for the job you want it to do. If you have something that is perfect for practical rifle, I'm not saying that it can't take foxes, I'm saying that maybe it's not best suited for that task. Like using a broadsword to open a packet of cornflakes.

 

I like my FAC. I enjoy shooting, it's very restful and theraputic being out in a field waiting for rabbits. I do not want to lose that. Maybe you will forgive me if I get slightly twitchy when people start talking like the NRA in America and saying they have a right to hold military-style weapons and use them in combat-style competitions.

[MC]

Wookie,

 

I have not read this thread fully but I am going to pull you you up on one thing, I use iron sights on a target rifle out to 1000 yards. I would bet that you can outshoot a scoped rifle with an aperture sight at that distance as you have a true circular aiming mark for each shot, you are not trying to line up crosshairs to the centre of a target. Benchrest is something different.

 

A blade foresight is not much different but not quite as accurate.

[Agentfunky]

To reply to pbickerd's question,

 

I'd firstly have to ask what the inteded use is for the rifle. Are you buying one to because you like the rifle at's looks and fancy shooting one as a plinker at relatively short ranges (some people who collect military style firearms prefer to go for the accurate looks rather than the funcionality of a competition rifle), or are you going to be looking at deriving as much accuracy as possible for the purposes of competition shooting?

 

I've not seen the XR15-M4 in the flesh, as most of the guys who shoot the campetitions we do have had their rifles built to their own specifications with better triggers, barrels, forends etc.

 

From what I've seen of the link you provided, I'd be inclined to check several things including:

 

1) whether or not the barrel is free floating (the forend handguard doesn not exert any forces on the barrel). If the barrel is free floating then the handguard cannot exert any forces on the barrel when using a sling for example or a bipod which might throw your zero out a bit.

 

2) the cocking system you wish to use. A straight pull modification with a machined upper receiver and cocking handle attached directly to the bolt is a very effective method of achieving a reasonable cycle rate and means that the rifle doesnt have to be removed from your cheek like it would with the central cocking system that comes as standard.

 

3) The barrel length.....what do you want to use it for? Fir target work out to 600yds or beyond you would be advised to go for a 20" barrel and a fast twist. I currently have 1:8" and 1:9" twist barrels, the 1:9 suits a 69gn bullet and the 1:8 shots well with a 77gn bullet which gives better accuracy out to longer ranges. For accuracy work I'd also be looking at getting a match barrel and working up an accurate load for reloading purposes.

 

From what I've seen I'd be inclined to speak to Bradley Arms and SGC to see what they can give you for your £1080 as you can get a far more user frinedly and accurate competition rifle for around that price or not much more. I have dealt with both firms and have found the quality of the kit supplied to be exceptionally good. The guy who owns Bradley arms shoots his own rifles in comps and his delivery time is considerably better than SGC in my experience.

 

Either way, happy shopping and I hope you enjoy whichever gun you buy. :look:

 

BTW, Wookie, bring yourself along to Bisley for the next highpower shoot, bring a bipod and a scope as big as you can get, and then shoot in the competition. I guarantee you will be severly outshot by guys who shoot with only a sling and iron sights. It really is a great competition. I've seen it happen.

 

Secondly, my understanding of the law is that in the UK we have the right to own and shoot firearms PROVIDED you can demonstrate a legitimate use for the firearm(s) in question and most importantly you are are a fit and proper person to do so. The FAC is a licence that applies conditions conditions to the aquisition and use of those firearms. Indeed there is a course of appeal available in the event that the relevant authorities believe they have due cause not to issue an FAC to an individual. All this talk about privelidge is not necessarily correct.

 

Having said that, that right can be easily lost should you be regarded at any point as somone who is not a fit and proper person through issues of safety, inapropriate behaviour or physical or mental medical conditions. And justly so.

Edited September 9, 2008 by Agentfunky