SACS. What do they support in England?

[David BASC]

Maybe this should be a new thread - not sure- not bothered…

 

I have tried to stay out of this as it always had the risk of falling into an argument between BASC and SACS – and I am NOT going to be drawn on any of the comments that Mr Clark has made.

 

Lets look at the issue of legal cover- what risks are you looking for support on for example?

 

Let me say from the start that if a BASC member breaks the law, threatens someone with a gun for example, then we would take a dim view indeed, and I would expect there would be no support in that case.

 

If we are talking of members having trouble with grant, renewal or variation of their licence this is another matter.

 

If members have problems they should contact us as soon as possible and we will advise them of the best way forward. OK I accept that the advice we give may not always be the advice they want to hear. If they follow our advice in MOST cases everything can be quickly and calmly sorted.

 

We will and do take cases to court, and yes we have a protocol in place where cases are assessed based on their likelihood of success and the effect the case will have for shooting. BUT we need evidence to do so…just because you have a lawyer does not mean you are going to win, remember someone wins the case someone looses the case every time….

 

We have looked at legal expenses cover and frankly given the very low number of potential claims on the policy we took a business decision that it was not the best use of the member’s cash.

 

Obviously SACS have taken a different view and this is attractive to some- which is fine.

 

Just a thought, and I am no expert in the legal system believe me but maybe one of you guys could point me in the right direction, say I get arrested tonight because I get into an argument with a guy down the pub – he knows I have guns, and he calls the police and tells them I have threatened to kill him. Police arrest me.

 

1. I am innocent and my initial concern is to get out of jail – I do not care who helps me I just want to get home.

2. I am entitled to a lawyer and I think the police will get me a duty solicitor FOC – who will make sure I get my rights and will force the charge or release issue.

3. I do not have to prove my innocence the other guy has to prove my guilt beyond all reasonable doubt – chances are I am out of Jail PDQ .

4. If the police take away my guns ‘just in case’ while they are investigating, fine – but as soon as I am cleared (with I am almost bound to be) I get the guns back. If not or if the police procrastinate I am onto BASC who I expect to give me good advice and to champion my cause with the police – sorted

David

[Dave-G]

Thanks David, what will BASC do if the police won't change their stance?

 

Or one of the other guys mates make a similar allegation a few weeks later - with the recent history?

Edited October 24, 2008 by Dave-G

[markbivvy]

ad libbing a scenario is not needed , we have a chap on here facing charges, he proved

he was not there at the time, police have still taken it to court and despite being a basc member for 5 years, they still offered no help.

 

this is the kind of thing i dont want to be involved in, but if i am i would want help in court not just over a phone.

and its been said the basc would have to hold a meeting before a decision could be made.

thats no good david, this day and age shooters need to know for a fact if they are up against a wall that they WILL be helped not MIGHT be helped.

Edited October 24, 2008 by markbivvy

[dustyfox]

You can say as much as you want on explaining things David but it clearly is Maybe BASC will help not a definite.

 

And £12 for insurance without legal cover Im sure you can spend an extra pound on each member to upgrade to this,

 

City boundaries are moving and more people will report people for shooting as they probably will think its illegal, I would want an organisation that can back me up and pay any financial costs.

 

Maybe BASC should change its policy, if people here on a forum is saying BASC is just a money grabbing organisation Im sure many others are out there, listen to your members dont sit in a room drinking tea discussing what your next move is.

[David BASC]

If, as you say ad lib is not needed, nor is posting only part of the story about this other guy….BASC offered no help - rubbish!

 

I do not expect you or your mate to post the full facts on the case on here esp if the matter could still go through the courts. It would be foolish to do so.

 

If has gone to the court it is NOT the police that decided this its the CPS who will only put the case to court if they believe there is a case to answer and they can get a conviction, and it is in the public interest.

 

If this guy had proven he was innocent, as you claim, he would not have been charged and the case would not be going to court would it?

 

By all means PM me the members name and I will check with our firearms team exactly what they guy was charged with and exactly what our advice was and I will then let you know the facts- only those elements that will not jeopardize his case of course.

 

David

[Dave-G]

I agree this is not the time or place to air the current affairs that may be in court.

 

What we do know is that there are ever more people trying to obstruct our shooting interests - Some of those may be in the police force or the CPS. Some incidents may be worthy of setting a precedent some may not. I would like to see our umbrella organisation offering support for when it happens, regardless of if it's only a threat to an individual member rather than shooters in general.

 

I have no idea how much more that cover on the policy would cost BASC, but given the massive membership numbers I'm sure it would be minimal when spread amongst so many. I still have a few days till my renewal, and am still undecided whether I should pay for twice for insurance I think I need.

[David BASC]

DF - OK, most shooters never get in trouble with the police I think we can agree on that.

 

If a shooter breaks the law he deservers to be prosecuted and have no support from any responsible organization I am sure you will agree.

 

If a shooter is wrongly accused then in the vast majority of cases they will be found innocent very quickly indeed, this is a fact. BASC will always be on hand to help the shooter and or their legal team if they want it and we do this on a regular basis. We will always help here. Duty solicitors etc still operate in the UK – no need to fund one is there or am I wrong?

 

If a member of BASC has issues over grant renewal or variation, again in the vast majority of cases we can help very easily by giving advice and or speaking with the FLD. We will always help.

 

We do not run a legal aid scheme and never have done.

 

We do not engage lawyers at the drop of a hat to take cases to court in the first insurance – we believe the British legal system is robust and good and in the vast majority of cases will come to the correct decision.

 

We do look at cases of appeal and have funded cases of appeal in the past. We will always help where there is a reasonable chance of success- we get a legal opinion on appeals BEFRORE we spend the members money – I am sure members would not appreciate us spending their cash on a case that had no hope of success.

 

BASC is a democratic (and not exclusively tea drinking) organization. If members of BASC feel that strongly about legal expenses cover I am happy to investigate further BUT I will say this, so far this year on over 60,000 reminder letters ot members I have asked the question ‘How can we improve our service to you or improve the package we offer?’ Care to guess how many members have mentioned legal expenses cover…. I anit going look to spend £50-100,000 of member money of a legal cover policy if there is no real demand- sorry if that sounds harsh but there it is.

 

David

[becassier]

Now really, I would have thought that Eric was a big enough boy to get himself out of a hole and not have a "what he meant to say" added on his behalf.

 

After all he has several literary pieces to his name and, one would have thought, will have considered what he wanted to say before he committed to it in text.

 

In my opinion BASC want testing because it will be a money-spinner for them and for no other reason. That's only my opinion though. How it would be administrated is a different can of worms.

 

SACS is a viable alternative to those of us who (a) have had it up to our back teeth with BASC and of that organisation telling us what we ought to have as opposed to what we want and (:yp: because it offers what we want at a third of the price.

 

If someone wants to join BASC or remain a member, fair enough.

 

Likewise those of us who really know what we want and what we will not have voisted upon us also have the choice!

 

Becassier

[dazza]

You can say as much as you want on explaining things David but it clearly is Maybe BASC will help not a definite.

 

And £12 for insurance without legal cover Im sure you can spend an extra pound on each member to upgrade to this,

 

City boundaries are moving and more people will report people for shooting as they probably will think its illegal, I would want an organisation that can back me up and pay any financial costs.

 

Maybe BASC should change its policy, if people here on a forum is saying BASC is just a money grabbing organisation Im sure many others are out there, listen to your members dont sit in a room drinking tea discussing what your next move is.

 

I don't think you need worry about insurance DF as you don't own a gun or even go shooting.

[auto culto]

how very diplomatic of you david and what an utter load of dangly bits. You know damn well who the person is that we are talking about and you also know that all charges have been dropped and still the revoke followed. So basically what your saying is all claims go to a basc committee that must resemble a court of law as you decide amongst yourselves if the person is guilty or not before you decide to act. During this time your member has totally misrepresented himself due to total lack of knowledge on legal issues because YOU decided to sit on the fence to see what happens before YOU and your bosom buddies decide that you can be of assistance 3 months after the event. I am so peed of with your protocol and so should you be. You have no morals if you can sit an watch. Basc are basicly cowards :yp:

[dustyfox]

I don't think you need worry about insurance DF as you don't own a gun or even go shooting.

 

This is not about a gun ownership thread stop hijacking and yes I do go shooting, I have just acquired 55000 acres of land to shoot on so :yp: :lol:

Edited October 24, 2008 by dustyfox

[markbivvy]

the case in question was just an example David same as yours mate.

I do not know the full Sp of it, people can only go on what they are told on the forums .

one organization was no help one was.

It will all come out in the wash.

mean while your organizations efficiency has been questioned and members currant or prospective are asking questions.

 

 

I anit going look to spend £50-100,000 of member money of a legal cover policy if there is no real demand- sorry if that sounds harsh but there it is.

 

seems a good few folk on here are David are asking for legal cover, not 60,000 i grant you but this is a small site and you frequent enough forums to know all is not well.

just a point why only ask 60,000 when you have a few more members than that.

Edited October 24, 2008 by markbivvy

[dazza]

Obviously both SACS and BASC have there good and bad points. It's scum like Animal Aid and the SABS we should be trying to stick one on not each other. I haven't noticed the Countryside Alliance getting slagged are they not due there turn?

[David BASC]

Wow AC call Me a coward! You say I have no morals? Hmmm powerful words :yp:

 

You can’t just get revoked for nothing- there is so often much more to this than meets the eye isn't there....you know that as much as I do.No I do NOT know the details of the case that is why I asked. Did he call us immediately or after he went to court? Did he get his lawyer to contact us for expert advice – as I say we do this all the time?

 

No we do not decide who is guilty as I said if you bothered to read my post- the CPS decide if there is a case to answer, the courts try the case, the judge and jury make the decision not BASC. What I said was that we have a process for reviewing appeals, and that review is looked at by a lawyer and it is based on the legal opinion as to whether an appeal is funded.

 

If we genuinely let the guy down then hands up, we need to look at why so it does not happen again, or was it something else? Any one who knows me know that I am man enough to admit when things have gone wrong and big enough to do all I can to fix problems.

 

On every reminder letter going out from mid year I have been asking the question, come mid next year EVERY member will have been asked

 

BASC want testing because it’s a money spinner- honestly what tosh – have you seen how much others are charging for training courses! Christ we are dead cheap compared to some.

 

We only have one guy doing training courses for members so I doubt we are going to save Iceland’s debt problem from the profits of the BASC training courses!

[V8landy]

The fact that these "debates" keep croping up is because things are not clear cut and straight to the point.

 

If people are just wanting insurance and legal cover has anyone sorted things out themselves with some sort of insurace broker?

[Willow32]

I completly agree , after reading the posts would it not be a good idea for all organisations...BASC,SACS and countryside allaince to merge ,that would give us unity and also more clout.....Also just to make something clear , the reason I made a comments about the BASC was first impressions.

Along time ago when I was a about 17 I hated hunting and shooting as I saw these images portraid by the press as snobbs ( as many of the public see ) .I then started drinking in a village and chatting to one of the blokes in there playing pool and he turned out to be the local huntsman.He introduced me to hunting and also shooting , the point I am trying to say is when you go to shows and gamefairs you need people the genral public can relate to............its all down to first impressions.

 

Anyway I will stop rambling.

 

Regards

Willow32

[JR1960]

If a shooter breaks the law he deservers to be prosecuted and have no support from any responsible organization I am sure you will agree.

 

Hmmm, and who decides BEFORE it has been settled in a court of law if a member HAS broken the law?

 

And what if he's done it accidentally? It happens, does he still deserve to be thrown to the wolves?

 

Just an observation, i've already voted with my feet.

Edited October 24, 2008 by JR1960

[David BASC]

Guilt or innocence is decided by a court – not the police or the CPS. All criminal cases go to a magistrates court who take a decision there – if not guilty then away the case goes end of.

 

If guilty and minor offence- magistrates deal, if major offence up to Crown court- jury barrister the lot.

 

Difference between accident – and or intent- is that it to be an accident there must have been no intent what so ever, it was a lack of care. If there was intent or the action was reckless then it is criminal law (typically)

 

You cant ‘accidentally’ threaten someone or accidentally smash all the windows in their house, or accidentally pour paint all over their car for example. Nor is ignorance any defense, you can’t say that you did not realize the watch you found in the street did not belong to anyone!

 

Could the organizations merge, I doubt it – too many personalities! All the organizations to sit under one umbrella though, the British Shooting Sports Council.

 

Here is my summary guys:

 

If you get nicked and are innocent the British legal system will serve you well – but this has nothing to do with BASC per se we are not a legal aid body!

 

However, if you are innocent and the police get silly with your license then for goodness sake get in touch with us so we can help and advise.

 

The police will only revoke if they have reason to believe you are no longer fit to own or possess guns – if this happens to you then again get onto us and we will investigate or you.

 

We will fund an appeal based on independent legal opinion.

 

Vote with your feet, the second best way of voting! The best is to use you democratic right as a member of an association!

 

David

[auto culto]

Guilt or innocence is decided by a court – not the police or the CPS. All criminal cases go to a magistrates court who take a decision there – if not guilty then away the case goes end of.

 

If guilty and minor offence- magistrates deal, if major offence up to Crown court- jury barrister the lot.

 

Difference between accident – and or intent- is that it to be an accident there must have been no intent what so ever, it was a lack of care. If there was intent or the action was reckless then it is criminal law (typically)

 

You cant ‘accidentally’ threaten someone or accidentally smash all the windows in their house, or accidentally pour paint all over their car for example. Nor is ignorance any defense, you can’t say that you did not realize the watch you found in the street did not belong to anyone!

 

Could the organizations merge, I doubt it – too many personalities! All the organizations to sit under one umbrella though, the British Shooting Sports Council.

 

Here is my summary guys:

 

If you get nicked and are innocent the British legal system will serve you well – but this has nothing to do with BASC per se we are not a legal aid body!

 

However, if you are innocent and the police get silly with your license then for goodness sake get in touch with us so we can help and advise.

 

The police will only revoke if they have reason to believe you are no longer fit to own or possess guns – if this happens to you then again get onto us and we will investigate or you.

 

We will fund an appeal based on independent legal opinion.

 

Vote with your feet, the second best way of voting! The best is to use you democratic right as a member of an association!

 

David

 

 

Ok first one you quoted "you cant accidentally threaten someone" This is very true but given the present climate with anti's it makes no difference as its the first thing they say to cause to get you nicked. By your posts you have said if someone behaves unreasonably they will not be supported. At this point how do you know if your client actually threaten someone or whether or not its fabricated ?

Your next absurd quote "the British justice system will serve you well" . Now when your at the bottom of the ladder and have no funds to supply yourself with good defence or support, you have to rely on duty solicitors that generally know sweet fa about shooting sports and countryside problems and are not interested in anything other than what time they can knock off. They can also be anti shooting themselves. Say basc are contacted at this point (as they were) what do you ? I know what happened. Basc were supportive and gave advice. No one came to see him to see what actually happened. You left him to rot.

You then go on to basically say if the police get silly you will then consider the case and decide if to fight the revoke or not.

This is just crazy. How can you look after members if you have to put it to a committee that takes ages to make a decision?

I,m afraid there is no way on earth you can hope to keep members when you look after them so well. As you keep requesting me to communicate via pm I'm assuming that you would like to sweep this issue under the carpet. What really puts the icing on the cake is the fact that SACS said to him they will sort for him even though he wasn't a member of sacs. They are funding it through their personal funds not the insurance because he was a non member !! Now if another tiny org like sacs can do this I'm damn sure you could have been a little more forthcoming. But hey who cares anyway its only a few people moaning at you.

[winchester]

If, as you say ad lib is not needed, nor is posting only part of the story about this other guy….BASC offered no help - rubbish!

 

I do not expect you or your mate to post the full facts on the case on here esp if the matter could still go through the courts. It would be foolish to do so.

 

If has gone to the court it is NOT the police that decided this its the CPS who will only put the case to court if they believe there is a case to answer and they can get a conviction, and it is in the public interest.

 

If this guy had proven he was innocent, as you claim, he would not have been charged and the case would not be going to court would it?

 

By all means PM me the members name and I will check with our firearms team exactly what they guy was charged with and exactly what our advice was and I will then let you know the facts- only those elements that will not jeopardize his case of course.

 

David

There is NO CRININAL CHARGES but the police still have my guns and certs and wont give them back-transfer to a rfd nor return any of my NON FIREARMS PROPERTY £6,500 WHAT BASC TOLD ME WAS THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO BEFORE A COMITTE to maybe fight the revoke, sorry but maybe and might dont cut it

[David BASC]

There must be more here, I cannot believe that when you contacted the firearms team their initial reaction was just and only as you say – always 2 sides to every story so I will look into this.

 

Moreover, I am sure the police have written to you to state exactly why they will not let you be in possession of your firearms-– the police need to be sure that you:

 

Have good reason to possess

Are of temperate habits

Are safe

 

Evidently in this case the police have made a decision to revoke for reasons which they will have (or should have) made very clear to you, if not so far then you must get them to put it in writing – so you know exactly what the issue is . Either way it will probably be connected to one of the above three ‘tests’.

 

I stand by what I say – the British legal system is good and robust, and serves us well- I accept that sometimes it is not 100% but it is still arguably the best in the world.

 

Do we fund the appeal? As I said before this needs legal opinion before it goes anywhere. And yes this will take time. I am very sorry indeed if this is not the level of support you expected and if that is the case then I can honestly say I know how you feel and I am truly sorry if you feel we have let you down.

 

Two key issues running through this as I see it are as follows:

 

There is a misunderstanding about exactly what is covered under the BASC membership package when it comes to 'legal assistance' be it in the first instance when an arrest is made and in the second instance where guns are removed or a certificate is revoked- this is something I can work on immediately to do all I can to advise members exactly what is and is not covered.

 

Also, and connected to the first point, members need to be very clear about what to do and who to contact at BASC to get immediate assistance if the police are refusing to grant, renew or vary your certificate, or if the police have seized your guns for example. This does not have to go through a committee as some seem to be suggesting by the way!

 

Finally and for point 1 I need to make it very clear how the appeals process works and also to try and get some realistic timings for these appeal decisions.

 

Secondly there is an apparent growing need for legal expenses cover - not across all members by any means but by some. In a situation like this it is often better to introduce such as a paid for option. I do know there are two types of legal cover available – before the event – where you take it our ‘just in case’ as it were, and after the event, where you take out the policy after you have been nicked. I will look into this also.

 

Very best wishes to all

 

David

[Dave-G]

A situation has arisen with my new open ticket. Whilst it was being opened I called firearms to say I needed to acquire a new 17HMR sound mod because I had damaged my sak mod whilst trying to dismantle it for cleaning. The new ticket had already been printed but was waiting to be signed so "really sorry but it'll need to be applied for when you get it back" fair enough - no problem. Ticket arrived but had been intercepted, reprinted to acquire said mod.

 

My old ticket had three mods on it - air, .22lr (unidentified) and 17hmr which was identified as a sak. Somewhere along the line the sak I had damaged was entered on the new ticket against my .22lr sound mod, which actually has a soundbiter mod on it, and the sound mod for my FAC air rifle had been omitted. Now what if I go lamping with my FAC air rifle, someone calls the police - they check my ticket and find I have a sound mod on my rifle that is not on the ticket?

 

Ok, a non fac air rifle mod can be used and it may be accepted or may not be but it's arguable - and I would argue hard. What if Mr policeman insists it should be on my ticket: then I get my securities checked and they find a soundbiter mod on my .22lr? and I blurt out that they ought to grow up a bit and show them a copy of my old ticket with them all on it. They get their back up and whip me down the nick and revoke my ticket for failing to observe its conditions. I've broken the terms right?

 

I intend to acquire the new sound mod before contacting the firearms office to ammend the simple minor errors. We certainly need “shooting experienced†lawyers influencing officers in the interview room, magistrates and judges, rather than advising members - or their general practitioner duty solicitors. I think the person in need gets one phone call - possibly at night too.

 

I would like to thank David for coming back to the forum after feeling it was best he stayed away.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Dave-G

[V8landy]

There is NO CRININAL CHARGES but the police still have my guns and certs and wont give them back-transfer to a rfd nor return any of my NON FIREARMS PROPERTY £6,500 WHAT BASC TOLD ME WAS THEY WOULD HAVE TO GO BEFORE A COMITTE to maybe fight the revoke, sorry but maybe and might dont cut it

 

 

We have the weakest police force in the world e.g can not even sort out kids! and cival liberty lot, so I find it hard to belive that there is not more to this.

[winchester]

Dave i have NOT sayed BASC are bad in any way but simply stated that When i needed help telephone advice is nither USE OR ORNIMENT when you need a breef ,

The revoke was done on ifs and maybeys, to the point that the chief of police tryed to change the dates of the alledged offences to make it fit.

I needed ACTION fast not a commitie meeting, to decide wether this side or the other was going to fight it and fund it .

SACS stepped up to the plate with CLEAR AND DECISIVE ACTION,

As i told BASC firearms team the decision WAS PURELY based on finance

I will not comment anymore on this as i have found out that there is a member of this forum printing off my posts and handing them to the flo.

Edited October 26, 2008 by winchester

[Pinkfooty]

Could the organizations merge, I doubt it – too many personalities! All the organizations to sit under one umbrella though, the British Shooting Sports Council.

 

 

David

 

I agree with David's conclusion but not with his reason. Personalities might come into it but the main reason that all the countryside organisations will never merge (imho) is that there are too many conflicts of interest. It is bad enough within live quarry shotgun and rifle shooting - the remit of BASC - with the interests of gameshooters not always being the same as those of wildfowlers or roughshooters or the interests of deer stalkers not always being the same as those of vermin controllers or lowland gamekeepers. What we can say is that, within those groups, the common issues are greater than the differences. But if you tried to include other countryside interests like farming, tourism, fishing, falconry, etc., then the differences start to outweigh the similarities. Really the only way forward is to have separate organisations but have good relations between them so that they can respect the differences but work together when there is a common purpose.

 

Let me have another go at trying to persuade the doubters that, as far as live quarry shooting in the UK is concerned, BASC is the first organisation you should consider joining (by all means join several of you have money to spare - before my income was reduced to a pension, I was a member of BASC, BFSS (now CA), Game Conservancy and SWT.).

 

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that although insurance and firearms advice are very important, they should not be the main reasons for joining BASC. The main reason is to promote and protect your shooting. I said that for shooting to survive, we need something to shoot at, somewhere to shoot and something to shoot with. Let's look at each of these in turn.

 

Something to shoot at - as live quarry shooters we need to have species of birds and animals that we are allowed to shoot. You can't get more obvious than that.

 

As this is the Pigeon Watch Forum, let's look at the woodpigeon. Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act the woodpigeon is a PROTECTED SPECIES which must not be shot. Again that should be obvious but it is amazing how many shooters you meet who are abysmally ignorant of that fact. The Act is only over-ridden if the appropriate government agency (separate agencies for England, Scotland, Wales and NI) issue licences to do so. These licences are reviewed periodically and currently are classified as General Licences which allow woodpigeon to be shot for pest control purposes under closely stipulated conditions. The fact that we can currently shoot woodpigeons as freely as we can at present is only because those government agencies have been persuaded that the conditions should be as relaxed as they currently are.

 

In the negotiations with the government agencies the only organisation that has any real clout and has the interests of shooters at the front of its agenda is BASC (can you really imagine an agency in England or Wales paying any attention to SACS?? You're having a joke, right?). We can claim without any hint of a doubt that, were it not for the ongoing efforts of BASC there is no way that woodpigeons could be shot as freely as at present.

 

Moving on to "somewhere to shoot", BASC has secured shooting leases over hundreds of miles and assisted in the purchase thousands of acres of shooting land. BASC's WHT has provided loans to many clubs to pump-prime their land purchase schemes. And it is not just wildfowling land - the club in Kent, for example, has control over a lot of woodland and pasture for roughshooting. No other organisation has done nearly as much to help shooters secure their shooting rights. BASC is currently advertising for a Chartered Surveyor to join the staff with the express job of helping members to secure their shooting land. It is OK for the idle rich and landed gentry - but ordinary shooters like you and me need that sort of help. There are now huge amounts of money going into other countryside uses - everything from extreme sports to eco-tourism - and the pressure on shooting land can only increase sharply in the future.

 

Finally, "something to shoot with" - that should be self-evident. Every time there have been government threats to place further restrictions upon the ownership and use of shotguns and sporting rifles, it is BASC that leads the defence of our rights. We have lost enough already. We need a stronger BASC to ensure that we do not lose any more. No other organisation has a look-in on this one.

 

So, if you are not already a member, join BASC now and also join your nearest BASC club. That way you can play a full part in your sport.

 

Sermon over.

 

Eric Begbie

Edited October 25, 2008 by Pinkfooty