Catamong Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Up until a few years ago you could shoot ‘birds only’ for a reduced price. Now what was wrong with that? A case of if it ain’t broken don’t fix it. The CPSA made some changes, and started charging ‘birds only’ shooters a premium (which went to the CPSA!) To be honest this was the final straw for me and the reason I left the CPSA and will never go back. Not everyone wants to shoot in a competition do they? Not everyone wants to pay the competition price when they do not want to enter the competition! Unfortunately some of the competitive guys do get a bit sniffy about ‘birds only shooters …quot; but the grounds certainly should not- after all its all income for them isn’t it? Clay shooting in the UK could not possibly survive if it was only for the serious competition shooters- there are only about 7000 of them, not ever enough to keep one ground per county open! David My goodness, there's a lot of nonsense being talked here, for starters "Birds Only" cards are still available to members at all Registered shoots, (except National Champs), at a discounted price, and they always have been. Also, the CPSA have never charged a "premium" for BO shooters. How can shooters get "sniffy" about BO shooters, their cards are the same colour, do they have to wear a dayglo jacket saying "Beware BO Muppet", no, of course not, they're identical to any other shooter. "Not everyone wants to shoot in a competition", of course they do, otherwise why would they go to the ground on that day, to sample the burgers, chat up Michelle at the Horne..?? "Clay shooting in the UK could not possibly survive if it was only for the serious competition shooters- there are only about 7000 of them, not ever enough to keep one ground per county open!" Yes but is the sport being threatened by competition shooters, of course not, the Sunday morning "straw balers" will always outnumber the serious competition guys by 10 to 1, but what's wrong with that..? David, I seem to recall you stating that it was wrong to criticise an organisation that you are not a member of, but you seem to be spreading a lot of stuff and nonsense about competition shooters and the CPSA, I suspect you are hoping many will read what you have put and then defect to BASC..?? I could start knocking WAGBI / BASC, but I won't 'cos I'm not a member......but hang on, how long have you got..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Chard, If you add onto that 31 seperate £3's to give to the CPSA and probably several £100's in diesel I would expect it to drop to mid 70's percentagewise. In your dreams, if your performance at Drayton Parslow was anything to go by..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 In your dreams, if your performance at Drayton Parslow was anything to go by..?? Cat. Ooooooooooooo - matron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Oh well. I was hoping if I signed up to be a member of Horne - in addition to my local club - I'd recieve a discount, or something. It seems what I'll get is the chance to compete and win a prize, but pay more money rather than less. At the moment I dont think I'd get a prize, at the moment anyway, so I'll be paying more money to fund someone elses prize, and to get ranked on the scoreboard, which is on thier website. Or rather, was on thier website, as that has disappeared too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 You should receive a "members discount" as a member the Horne CPC, but that has nothing to do with the CPSA. Also winning money is relatively easy, all you've got to do is an "apprenticeship" at shooting for a few years, work very hard at, make it your most important leisure pursuit, and sooner or later all of that effort will pay off. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Well I shoot at least once a week, I spend most of my free money on shooting, if I'm not shooting I'm probably posting on a shooting forum, I do me bit I just want to do the best I can, and keep improving. So far thats what I've done I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 In your dreams, if your performance at Drayton Parslow was anything to go by..?? Cat. Old age is really kicking in then Cat. Perhaps if you can cast your mind back that far you will remember I shot a 73/100. Obviously not as good as your 96/100 but still close to mid 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Up until a few years ago you could shoot ‘birds only’ for a reduced price. But for birds only shooters your score does not go to the CPSA for rankings and you do not get any prize money regardless of your score. Not correct of a CPSA registered shoot. This only occurs when a shoot operator allows non-CPSA members to shoot, or CPSA members to use a card without returning the scores. All scores of CPSA full members entering a registered shoot are returned, regardless of whether you enter Targets only or Competition. This system had been going for ages and worked well – no problems were reported, and it meant that the likes of me – who would be ‘C’ class at best, could shoot where ever I liked for a ‘discount’ There is no discount, the cost of shooting the clays is the same clays only or competition. The only difference is the addition of the prize fund, money that belongs to the shooters competing for it and is distributed amongst those entered to compete for it. Now what was wrong with that? A case of if it ain’t broken don’t fix it. The CPSA made some changes, and started charging ‘birds only’ shooters a premium (which went to the CPSA!) About 20 yrs ago, for a short period of time when the CPSA was in financial difficulties it was decided that shooters in registered competition should pay as they shot. So,a small levy was added to each shoot and returned to HQ. This was rather than increase membership substantially, and was a pretty fair system. The more you shot registered shoots the more you paid, while basic membership fees were held down so non competitive shooters were not subsidising classified shooters. The reason this stopped was the change in VAT status of the CPSA to becoming a Sporting Membership body outside the scope of vat, thus returning a huge VAT refund, that still forms the bulk or CPSA reserves today. To be honest this was the final straw for me and the reason I left the CPSA and will never go back. Pay as you shoot seems fairly equitable to me. In the current system, a full member who who enters no or few competitions pays the same a the serious shooter who does 50 a year. As the levy was only charged on registered cards, not on practice cards ( different from "Targets only" and possibly the source of confusion), practice shooters would have never paid a levy. When you did you were part of a registered competition and your scores were returned for your averages. Technically, under CPSA rules, practice cards could not be shot on the same course as registered rounds, but this was widely allowed by ground operators who did not want to turn away punters. Not everyone wants to shoot in a competition do they? Not everyone wants to pay the competition price when they do not want to enter the competition! There are far more practice shoots than there are competition shoots, so the CPSA is hardly forcing any-one to shoot registered. The registered shoot uses markers at every stand and has higher staffing than score your own practice, so there will always be a price difference. If you enter the registered round, every one pays the same for their clays to the ground owner (and nothing to the CPSA). If there is a price difference, it is purely the prize fund addition. Unfortunately some of the competitive guys do get a bit sniffy about ‘birds only shooters – but the grounds certainly should not- after all its all income for them isn’t it? Because of a large increase in the numbers who prefer to shoot targets only, prize funds have diminished. Those that liked the competitive edge shooting for a prize pot gave, feel that the "birds only boys" are spoiling the fun by not paying into the competition prize fund premium at entry Clay shooting in the UK could not possibly survive if it was only for the serious competition shooters- there are only about 7000 of them, not ever enough to keep one ground per county open! Three quarters of the CPSA grounds do not run registered shoots ever. The 18,000 or so non-competition shooters in the CPSA are catered for in practice clays at the 300 affiliated grounds. Only 100 registered or above ground hold registered shoots, and these are still the minority of the shoots they hold, the bulk still being practice. David I think the the naming of the two prices of a registered card as "Targets/Birds/Clays only" and "Competition" has led to lots of confusion. The distinction between a CPSA registered shoot, and a club competition, or practice, is also not clear in many peoples minds. There is a common thought that "Targets/birds/clays only" entry is not registered, when in fact it is identical in every respect to what is confusingly called "Competition". The latter simply means an amount, say £2-00 per entrant, is added to form a prize fund, that is divided according the the rules of the competition for winners and places. All entrants get their scores returned for classification, and are eligible for any prizes not generated by the prize fund, i.e trophies and donated prises. As registered shoots at smaller grounds and in sparsely populated areas might not get enough entrants to be viable, it was common practice for ground owners to sell practice cards along side registered cards. Regretfully, if the levy in place at the time was being charged on these by the ground owner, the fee levied may well not have found its way back to the CPSA, and another reason that the levy was dropped, - collecting and policing it was not easy. Today, the day ticket system allows a non-CPSA member to legitimately shoot a round on a registered layout alongside CPSA shooters. This allows the casual shooter the opportunity to try out the quality of registered targets, and to "pay as you go". It becomes cheaper to be a CPSA competition member than pay day tickets of you shoot more than 5 day tickets a year. Counties and Regions of the CPSA may apply levies to their County and Regional championships. This is added by the ground owner and goes to the county or regional committee, where it is used for trophies, sponsorship ( usually juniors), and donations to good causes. Edited January 19, 2009 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 at the end of the day its all twaddle. the ground does exactly what it likes and the cpsa dont really care, they and the grounds just keep taking the money. the only reason grounds like birds only shooters is because its more profit as half of the entries the cpsa never knows about. from the way the rules state, i can go to a registered comp, pay birds only yet be entitled to win high gun prize as its technically sponsored by the ground. you see if you ever get the money given to you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 at the end of the day its all twaddle.the ground does exactly what it likes and the cpsa dont really care, they and the grounds just keep taking the money. the only reason grounds like birds only shooters is because its more profit as half of the entries the cpsa never knows about. from the way the rules state, i can go to a registered comp, pay birds only yet be entitled to win high gun prize as its technically sponsored by the ground. you see if you ever get the money given to you! The CPSA really does care a lot, and has run regional ground owners meeting for the last three years to talk with and work with ground owners. Their difficulties are discussed, new solutions and ideas put forward to solve some of the problems the grounds have. Schemes like the Day Pass are implemented so that Ground Owners have no need to bypass the system, and can operate practice cards along side registered shoots. Prizes fall into two distinct groups: The Competition Prize fund, paid for by an addition to the cost of a card, and all money belongs back to the shooters. Details of how the prize fund is distributed should be displayed by the club. Trophies, prizes in kind, and guaranteed prizes are available to all registered shooters, whether they have entered the prize fund competition or not. These prizes are not subject to the CPSA rules, and can be conditional by the donator, only available if entries are over a certain pint, or only available to county shooters etc. Shooters like their prizes, and if a ground owner was abusing fair play and not awarding offered prizes, shooters would soon complain and vote with their feet. Running a shooting ground is not a get rich quick recipe - its a lot of hard work with high theft and weather risks, and an often thankless task. To imply that the average shoot operator is going to rip off shooters on prizes is a pretty heavy accusation, most shoots are their because the owner loves shooting and shooters, and we should be grateful for the hard work they put in so we can shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 The CPSA really does care a lot, and has run regional ground owners meeting for the last three years to talk with and work with ground owners. Their difficulties are discussed, new solutions and ideas put forward to solve some of the problems the grounds have. Schemes like the Day Pass are implemented so that Ground Owners have no need to bypass the system, and can operate practice cards along side registered shoots. Clayman, It's clear from your answer that you've not shot many Registered events recently, Emmsy is bang on with his post, and has highlighted a loophole in current CPSA policy, a lot of grounds won't operate the day pass system, because it's not in their interests to do so, as I said earlier, they sell "Ghost Cards", that nobody knows about except them. Why should they give the CPSA a £2 bung for every non member, far better in their back pocket..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 If you are suggesting that some grounds are adding the levy to non-cpsa members entering a practice round on a Registered shoot, and they are not declaring it to the cpsa, it would seem the ground is being dis honest with both shooters and the CPSA. One wonders why the shooters dont complain to both the ground operator concerned and the CPSA. While I have heard many suggestions that practices like this exist, I have never come across them in personal experience. I prefer to think ( and I'm an ex ground owner and know many), that most shoots are honest and correct in their dealings with entries and prizes. Its a shame if a few bring this global reputation on other shoots, and it lies in the hands of shooters themselves to do something about poor practices being engaged by mavericks. I just dont like suggestions that lump all shoot operators in the same category as a few that play the system, and need to defend all those very hard working shoot owners that give us the opportunity to enjoy our sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) If you are suggesting that some grounds are adding the levy to non-cpsa members entering a practice round on a Registered shoot, and they are not declaring it to the cpsa, it would seem the ground is being dis honest with both shooters and the CPSA. One wonders why the shooters dont complain to both the ground operator concerned and the CPSA. How would I know? That's why I started this thread. I just turn up say clays only and go shoot. I was looking for options. Edit Clayman you're in Gatwick?? Where do you shoot??? Edited January 21, 2009 by throdgrain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Clayman, the way it works is that there is a fair few non cpsa members go to registered shoots and ask for an entry. they duly pay up the birds only entry fee and then shoot. as they are not cpsa members the grounds generally just put the money in the back pocket and the cpsa knows nothing about it. as they are not cpsa registered the cpsa does not need to be informed they even appeared. and from what you detailed earlier it proves that the rule book is indeed twaddle as you say its all up to the ground to say what and how they want to pay out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) Clayman, the way it works is that there is a fair few non cpsa members go to registered shoots and ask for an entry. they duly pay up the birds only entry fee and then shoot. as they are not cpsa members the grounds generally just put the money in the back pocket and the cpsa knows nothing about it. as they are not cpsa registered the cpsa does not need to be informed they even appeared. and from what you detailed earlier it proves that the rule book is indeed twaddle as you say its all up to the ground to say what and how they want to pay out. Agreed - I don't think your average "birds only muppet" really thinks too deeply about what he's charged at a registered shoot. They just tend to hand over the cash and get on with it. When they're told how much it is to enter, it isn't broken down, it's given as a lump sum. The birds only entry fee at the ground where I shoot in registered events, now that Worsley has been stiffed up, charge a few quid more than the local average for a round of clays. Where that "extra" goes is unknown to the entrant, it isn't mentioned. Edited January 21, 2009 by Chard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) My last reply was in response to Catamong's post. Personally, I dont have a problem with a practice card being sold at a registered shoot. The implication of several posts was that the ground owners were charging a premium due to the CPSA and pocketing it. That is poor. If the amount charged to a non-CPSA shooter is the same as clays only, the ground owner's only saving is the time entering up the shooters score for upload to the CPSA system. Everything else the shooter receives is the same, and they should pay the same for it. It is noticeable that the uptake by grounds to use the day card system to allow practice cards on a registered shoot is only used by a few grounds. After 3 years on operation, perhaps this should be given a re-think by the CPSA. They will never stop the practice of allowing non-CPSA shooters to shoot along side Reg shooters, and if the fee is the problem, perhaps it should be dropped? I'll start a poll and see what the opinion is. PS, I originally ran Stanhill Claysports, then Bones Wood ( taken over by Horne, but later closed on noise), and until 1998 Abacus Claysports ( now Gatwick Shooting School). The latter ground was registered for Skeet at the time, two layouts, plus ABT, DTL and 50 esp - and hosted the Surrey Skeet championship and Skeet doubles in my last year of ownership. This ground is no longer registered due to airport expansion limiting the layouts now available. Since then in my role with the CPSA, 2002-2007, I shot at Sth Counties, SW Shooting Sc, Larkhill, Pirbright, Nat Clays, EJ Churchill, Catton Hall, Coniston, Blackpool, Southend, Doveridge, Garlands, Biddies, A1, and more than I can remember. I also attended the ground owners meetings in each region in 2005-6. I feel that if shooters think the system is flawed, they should join the CPSA if they are not in it, and lobby their Ground Owners, County and Region, and HQ for equitable changes. I dont see the point in moaning about the way ground operators implement the system, and then doing little about it. Changes lie in the hands of the shooters, and the CPSA does listen, so if the voice is strong enough changes for the good will come. Edited January 21, 2009 by clayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I thought the bloke who ran Gatwick before was an old bloke who got ill or something and lost interest in it. No doubt you were the bloke before that?? I shoot at Gatwick very regularly, as its only 2 or 3 miles from my house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Thodgrain Gatwick Shooting Schools history! I set up and ran Stanhill Claysports at Stanhill Court Hotel, which my wifes family owned and I managed from 1986 to 1992. Old Don Barret who had run a shoot back in the 80s in the Chalk Pits nr Brockham was the helper and coach, and worked with me from 1988 to 1998. When we sold the hotel we retained the shooting rights to keep the shoot running, but after a couple of years the shoot was coming into conflict with the new owners of the Hotel, and we moved off to Bones Wood near Snow Hill, Effingham. This did not last as the owner was offered more rent by another shoot, who applied a 9:30 to 3pm 100 targets shoot, upset the neighbors, and although we got the land back, the area was already noise blighted and we moved to combine with Chadhurst Clay Club at Brook farm. Our part of the operation was known as Abacus Claysports, and this remains my trading name to this day. Chadhurst was a self help group, shooters took turns in trapping etc, and had only manual traps, shot once a month and had a caravan for shelter. We brought in the clubhouse thats there now, power and water, the loos, skeet ranges, ( two back then), ABT and DTL, land drained the field, hydraulic tower and auto traps. We ran one Sunday and One Wednesday a month, and Chad the other Sunday. When I sold out to Don Barrett in 1998 ( whom you remember) I became a full time independent coach working mainly at Southdown and running corporates at Bisley and Ridgewod. After a couple of years of that I worked for 5 yrs as CPSA Safety and Training Manager, and during that time trained both David and Gale Reece who were Don Barretts helpers and took over the shoot at Brook Farm when Don became to ill two or three yrs back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Aha! I know Dave and Gail quite well, I'll remember them to you next time I'm up there, its Gatton Bottom for me this sunday so next sunday I expect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosspot Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Weather permitting I may go up the bottom this Sunday, i'll keep an eye out for a Tacklebury clone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Weather permitting I may go up the bottom this Sunday Really Tarquin? You won't want it windy then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Weather permitting I may go up the bottom this Sunday, i'll keep an eye out for a Tacklebury clone Forecast is wet & windy for Sunday, was thinking of doing Southdown as they have both ESP and Sportrap on, but will probably go after the woodies instead. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throdgrain Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Weather permitting I may go up the bottom this Sunday, i'll keep an eye out for a Tacklebury clone What in gods name are you on about now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosspot Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Forecast is wet & windy for Sunday, was thinking of doing Southdown as they have both ESP and Sportrap on, but will probably go after the woodies instead. Cat. Option No 2, the real thing, got a good head of birds feeding on some cover crop on a drive that is finished with for the season, throdgrain Tacklebury it's a pump thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Option No 2, the real thing, got a good head of birds feeding on some cover crop on a drive that is finished with for the season, Yeah, deffo more fun than clays at the Horne, (or even Sarfdarn). Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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