tiercel Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Goshawk; While feeding pheasants early morning, again having a fag sitting under a big oak, when the hawk struck on a woodland ride. Exactly the same scenario but late afternoon the following day on the same ride. PS. They fly all types of raptors at the game fair .... Roger rabbit are you sure it was a fag you were smoking? All those raptors that are flown at fairs"ARE NOT HUNTING BIRDS THEY ARE DISPLAY BIRDS." Nothing more nothing less, they would not know how to hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiercel Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Roger_Rabbit before this gets too silly i think i should tell you some facts about raptors. Sparrow hawk. As FM told you sparrow hawks rarely attack anything bigger than a blackbird. There are a few reasons for this one is that they may get hurt and therefore that would be self destructing as once hurt they cannot hunt. The main reason however is that they dont kill what they cant eat. All hawks and falcons have a trigger mechanism in thier brain that is weight related. I E if a bird has a kill and eats it all then it will have a weight gain, that weight gain will switch off all its hunting instincts. From that point on it is down to the metabolism of each individual bird as to when the hunting instinct starts again. In the sparrow hawks case why should it take on a quarry that could potentialy hurt it when it can only eat a small part of that prey. A sparrow hawk needs to feed at least twice a day as it has a small crop and a fast metabolism. All raptors cannot hunt untill they have cast the pellet from the last meal. Buzzards. The most common and available bird in this country, how many are flown at quarry? Answer almost none, why? because they have feet that are about the size of a female spar and none of the agility. Goshawk. The premier hunter among the raptors, this bird is not only capible but if they find them will consistenly kill pheasants. NO OTHER HAWK IS CAPABLE OF TAKING SUCH A DIVERSITY OF PREY. As a hunter they are without contridiction the best this country and many others have to offer, unparrelled in their killing power, agilty and general tenacity. However they have one failing, they have large crops and like to fill them. Therefore if they killed a pheasant today and were allowed to gorge on it they would probibly not hunt for the next two days as they would gain so much weight that their hunting instincts would be shut down for that time. You may think that i am talking through my behind so to speak but as someone who hunts with birds on a daily basis i can assure you i am not. a differance of 1/4 of an ounce can mean the differance between success and failure. A gos that has gorged on pheasant would and do put on approx 2oz in weight by the time they have cast the pellet. So before you state things learn a little about the birds not just hearsay. And if you can tell the differance between a gos and a female spar at 50yds you have better eyes tham me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 I won't pretend to know anything about falconry but I understand that the term "fed up" comes from the condition you describe Tiercel. Hunting birds no longer fly / hunt when they have fed. I think "hoodwinked" comes form falconry too doesn't it? Piebob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digga Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 i must admit, i dont know much about falconry,and just basic stuff about all the raptors, :yp: but after reading everyones posts on here, i know a hell of a lot more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger_Rabbit Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 First and foremost I do NOT think you are talking through your behind .... I greatly admire your knowledge .. and passion .. for raptors.................. However I disagree with you and insist there are too many raptors that do not contribute to a healthy prey species .... and I disagree about your "postage stamp" remark where you could have offered an educated reply instead of being cynical ..... The Goshawks wing shape and colour in flight are the difference in identification from a Spar. Just to clarify the two Goshawk strikes, the Gos did not eat either pheasant, in the mistaken belief that I could save the pheasants I chased down the ride to within 20 foot of the bird (first occation) and up and away he/she went. On the second occation I may have been 20 yards away before it took flight The Buzzard; I know nothing about it's agility :*) and if you tell me it's feet are the same size as a female sparrow hawk I will believe you .. but I have had first hand experience of their massive size and in all honesty find it very hard to accept ....... However they kill pheasant poults and mature birds .. I've seen it. What is the difference between a smooth legged and feathered legged Buzzard not a trick question .. I don't know but I have seen the feathered leg attacking our live crow catcher trap and later found it inside the trap with the remains of my call bird .... so there must be some agility ?? (ladder type trap) You have ruined a perfecty educated and very informative reply with your last two sentences: :yp: Where have I ever mentioned hearsay ?? Obviously I do have better eye sight than you because the hawks in question were identified at less than 20 yards (the hit was 50 yards) THE BIRDS FLOWN AT FAIRS ARE DISPLAY BIRDS. It's obvious even to me that the vast majority are .. but not all, so I disagree with you and so will a Large gentleman who earns his living at fairs and hunting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 However I disagree with you and insist there are too many raptors that do not contribute to a healthy prey species .... I chased down the ride to within 20 foot of the bird (first occation) and up and away he/she went. On the second occation I may have been 20 yards away before it took flight Hi Roger. I could never agree with your first statement. Nature will find its own balance and often does where raptors are concerned. The availablity of sufficient prey species during the rearing cycle is paramount to the success of raptors and their numbers can quickly diminish over just a few seasons of unsuccessful breeding. This is generally the only thing which affects their life expectancy other than predation by man. Really you are a victim of your own success as a breeder of game birds you are putting a regular and sustainable food supply on a plate for the birds. On your second statement I wonder if the bird might have been an inexperienced escaped captive bird as I would not expect to get so close to a wild Goss as they are generally quite secretive and wary, Often heard but not often seen. Any sign of any rings or jesses' FM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger_Rabbit Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Hi FM, I think you have hit the nail on the head with " victim of your own success as a breeder of game birds you are putting a regular and sustainable food supply on a plate for the birds ". The incident with the Goss happened the season before last, definately no jesses, in all honesty I could not say about rings :*) I never gave it a thought :*) plus being a smoker for 40 years (man & boy) the sudden sprint almost left me in the same condition as the pheasant :*) I don't move in the circle of breeders / trainers, the closest I have been in contact was to request a couple of guys too leave private land, unforetunately for them their American white tailed kite was perched 15 foot up in a dead elm tree and refusing to come down. (took them over 1 hour to coax it down) Not being in the circle .. you don't get to know about escaped captives :yp: Saw the bird again on one occation only during that season as it took off from it's perch, the wood is approx 50 acre, inverted 'L' shape on a steap incline, 2 good rides, a 400 yards grass strip for the guns, and another wood directly behind the guns of approx 15 acres. (managed woods) .. Never saw the bird last season. I certainly appreciate and respect your views and fully respect your knowledge .. (which is far greater than mine) I will remain adamant that we have too many Buzzards ..................... This coming season I intend to be equipped with a camera, and will try and post some pic's of our 3 breeding pairs of Buzzards. Could be a bit mundane for the members but I will try and make them interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 :< sorry but I can`t abide buzzies as amongst other things I shot 4 pheasant at a cock shoot last week and I had them in my gamebag.The `keeper said to assist the drive through,as i was back gunning (and doing a gr8 job!) I decided to leave the bag and collect it on the way back.Long story short guess what was sitting on top of the bag as I hove into sight??not only that but it cut a hole in the mesh :< couple of days later and were ferreting and after 3-4 shots the 1st of the buzzies start to arrive,culminating in 5 of them.There is no doubt in my mind that if they learn that bang = dinner they also understand that july/august = poultfest :< FAR TOO MANY OF THE B*****S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 FAR TOO MANY OF THE B*****S Never... A healthy Raptor Poulation means a healthy prey species population. The two go hand in hand. If there were no rabbits around for you to ferret there would be no Buzzards who would you blame then. ? I love to see them if they want to come and take the odd pigeon or rabbit I have shot then fine by me. You shouldnt leave things lying around the countryside If you did that in the Town you would probably get arrested when you came back to collect it. FM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Nino Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 FAR TOO MANY OF THE B*****S Never... A healthy Raptor Poulation means a healthy prey species population. The two go hand in hand. If there were no rabbits around for you to ferret there would be no Buzzards who would you blame then. ? I love to see them if they want to come and take the odd pigeon or rabbit I have shot then fine by me. You shouldnt leave things lying around the countryside If you did that in the Town you would probably get arrested when you came back to collect it. FM. Yes but having that many pheasant poults there isnt a natural occurence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 So if I put down 150 poults on 5-600 acres in 2 pens and I string the pen top and put up CD`s to flash and still find 2-3 of them sat in tree`s looking at the poults,that`s not too many.....Gis a break.Next .......what do I shoot,goosanders ,who aren`t originally indiginous to the UK or the seals.The seals take a bite from the shoulder of the salmon and let it go the goosander eats parr by the bucket load ! seals feed day and night on the Tay up to 30 miles inland from Dundee the goosander are now mopping up in the feeder burns ! Do we have to put up with the Salmon going to un sustainable No.s before we can do anything??? :< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 So if I put down 150 poults on 5-600 acres in 2 pens and I string the pen top and put up CD`s to flash and still find 2-3 of them sat in tree`s looking at the poults,that`s not too many.....Gis a break.Next .......what do I shoot,goosanders ,who aren`t originally indiginous to the UK or the seals.The seals take a bite from the shoulder of the salmon and let it go the goosander eats parr by the bucket load ! seals feed day and night on the Tay up to 30 miles inland from Dundee the goosander are now mopping up in the feeder burns ! Do we have to put up with the Salmon going to un sustainable No.s before we can do anything??? :< Point taken but the decline in Salmon Numbers is nowt to do with Inland Goosander numbers a fact confirmed by the Scottish Office in studies on the Feeding habits of sawbills on the Scottish Salmon rivers way back in 1994. The problem hear lies with over explotation by man in raping of inshore and off shore waters and taking salmon by netting in unsustainable numbers before they have the opportunity to enter their indiginous waterways and reproduce to any great extent. The influx of Goosanders from Scandinavia in recent years is also attributed to the acidity of inland lakes reducing fish stocks and hence breeding success. Again a man made problem. The Goosander & Redbreasted Merganser take salmon parr but they also take brown trout, eel, grayling, stickleback, lamprey, loach & minnow in large numbers. These fish being of no commercial value who is to "Champion their cause." ?? Salmon numbers taken by sawbills is a **** in the Atlantic compared to commercial netting!!! So there is the root cause of the problem. Every time you open a tin of John west you are contributing to the decline of the Scottish salmon !!! Seals have been raiding inland Estuarires for centuries searching further and further inland for depleted fish stocks. Who is at fault here. Is it not man again . I simply dont think its fair to blame nature for doing what nature does when the main culprit is probably stood next to us. FM. Ps. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but natural Scottish salmon have been at unsustainable numbers since the 1970,s hence the reason for the commercial hatcheries springing up everywhere and now being a major contributor in terms of produce and employment to the Scottish economy. Am I not right ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Got it in one FM, we're hearing reports of ***** inland here, about as far inland as you can get, some therise that it's due to bad weather out to sea where they normally reside but I wouldn't mind betting it's down to food resource decline. We are getting all the alarm bells but no one is doing anything to even try to redress the balance, it may even be too late !!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I have heard that this years Salmon run is extremely good, and some anglers have commented that there may even be "too many Salmon returning" for the river, which seems to me a bit silly considering it's not as if the returning salmon are going to be eating. Hopefully with the drift netters all bought out it can make a difference to Salmon fishing, I just hope they can apply this to more species of fish in the oceans so that their harvesting is sustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Nino Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 I have heard that this years Salmon run is extremely good, and some anglers have commented that there may even be "too many Salmon returning" for the river, which seems to me a bit silly considering it's not as if the returning salmon are going to be eating. Hopefully with the drift netters all bought out it can make a difference to Salmon fishing, I just hope they can apply this to more species of fish in the oceans so that their harvesting is sustainable. Will that be affected by the escape of all the farmed salmon? Would they join the wild fish in their journey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibbz2000 Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 Weve got a massive 6 pairs of buzzards over our 660 acres of land in mid-wales. Weve been told its the second largest amount within a certain area thats known in powys. The highest being in reyder where they flock like pigeons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 [Will that be affected by the escape of all the farmed salmon? Would they join the wild fish in their journey? Have a read of this El Nino very intresting Salmon Escapees. Cheers. FM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Nino Posted February 10, 2005 Report Share Posted February 10, 2005 So it is very possible. Especially after the high winds t the start of the year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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