poontang Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 What's supposed to have happened to the CCTV in this case? If there is CCTV footage, and there should be plenty, it should be in the hands of the IPCC who are investigating the case. It would be extremely foolish to pretend that no recording took place on the day in question, or that, somehow, all the cameras in the vicinity weren't working. It's due mainly to peoples own video/camera footage that this whole episode has come to light. The police have already had to change their story on a couple of occasions as new footage has been shown on the likes of YouTube etc. We may well be the most 'watched' nation on Earth, but it now works both ways, and the 'watchers' are being 'watched'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I love conspiracy theories Strange sort of conspiracy theory that is announced on primetime TV news. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/soci...working/3078297 Click on the *watch the report* link and hear Nick Hardwick, chairman of the IPCC, claim that the CCTV *wasn`t working* that day. No footage available. Not a sausage. Nada. Zilch. Zip. In the financial centre of the most heavily surveilled city on earth, during a summit that the authorities had been planning and preparing for months, all the cameras at Bank, Cornhill and Threadneedle St were apparently broken. Yes. And I`m the King of Spain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p@cman Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 3. If he was have an MI at that point, he was dead, even if he was in a cardiac unit, with a doctor and hocked up to all those wonderful machines tax payers money pays for, he'd have a 50% chance. In reality he had 1 minute where getting a AED on to him might have saved him and its a big if. Actually, studies using Police Officers as first responders using AED's in out of hospital cardiac arrests have reported survival rates as high as 49-74%. I'm not saying it would have made any difference in this chaps case, but witnessed/monitored cardiac arrests following an MI (heart attack) in hospital have a much better chance of survival than what you have suggested above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnamaniac Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Actually, studies using Police Officers as first responders using AED's in out of hospital cardiac arrests have reported survival rates as high as 49-74%. I'm not saying it would have made any difference in this chaps case, but witnessed/monitored cardiac arrests following an MI (heart attack) in hospital have a much better chance of survival than what you have suggested above. Hi I don't want to start a flame war or imply anything, but those figures are very high for survival of a MI, I have a nursing background, which I *** after leaving the police and moving in to the prison servce. Survival rates for MI are dependent of the standard of care received within the first minute, an AED will greatly increase your immediate chances of survival. But even if you have the MI in a cardiac care unit its a fifty/fifty thing. especially looking at the mans age and apparent life style. I have never managed to ressuitate anyone who has had an MI, and in my case I am sorry to say thats 3 people who have died. I think what was done for him, was proberly the best that cpould have happened in the situation, but as you say you'll never know. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Strange sort of conspiracy theory that is announced on primetime TV news. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/soci...working/3078297 Click on the *watch the report* link and hear Nick Hardwick, chairman of the IPCC, claim that the CCTV *wasn`t working* that day. No footage available. Not a sausage. Nada. Zilch. Zip. In the financial centre of the most heavily surveilled city on earth, during a summit that the authorities had been planning and preparing for months, all the cameras at Bank, Cornhill and Threadneedle St were apparently broken. Yes. And I`m the King of Spain. Whilst I agree it looks strange from the outside, are you suggesting that all (private corporate) companies with premises in these areas are on a cover up on behalf of the police? I think that's a little stranger myself. What does surprise me is what appears to be a deep seated hatred of the police from some on here. One guy may or may not have made a mistake but all police seem to be fair game to some. Sad really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) 1. CCTV in the area were attacked by the rioter, I know to a civilian conspiracy lover this seems strange, but somestimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes a cover up is just a cover up. The exact same thing happened in the De Menezes case. 2. The whole area at the time was a hot spot of distubances. Thats why the ambulance was so slow coming as ambulance control will not allow quite rightly their staff in to a danger zone. 3. If he was have an MI at that point, he was dead, even if he was in a cardiac unit, with a doctor and hocked up to all those wonderful machines tax payers money pays for, he'd have a 50% chance. In reality he had 1 minute where getting a AED on to him might have saved him and its a big if. Fair comment. For what it`s worth there is a history of heart disease in the Tomlinson family; I believe his brother died of a heart attack at the age of 46. Plainly, Ian Tomlinson was not a well man; it could well be he would have died that day anyway. It remains to be seen wether the rough treatment he received contributed to his death. We must await the results of the second autopsy. 4. Also I have just rewatched the guardian footage, and I couldn't find any evidence of him being hit after he had been pushed. The testimony I quoted relates to a seperate, earlier alleged assault. As far as I know it was not filmed, but three witnesses claim to have seen it. So lets wait for the IPCC to investigate, and lets stop being paranoid Not paranoid, but extremely cynical about the methods and motives of the IPCC. On learning of the film footage taken by the American fund manager and broadcast by the Guardian, the first action of the IPCC was to go to the offices of the newspaper in Faringdon Road, accompanied by a senior City of London police officer, and ask for the film to be taken down from the website. You have to wonder why they would make such a request. Edited April 13, 2009 by Carter59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p@cman Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 HiI don't want to start a flame war or imply anything, but those figures are very high for survival of a MI, I have a nursing background, which I *** after leaving the police and moving in to the prison servce. Survival rates for MI are dependent of the standard of care received within the first minute, an AED will greatly increase your immediate chances of survival. But even if you have the MI in a cardiac care unit its a fifty/fifty thing. especially looking at the mans age and apparent life style. I have never managed to ressuitate anyone who has had an MI, and in my case I am sorry to say thats 3 people who have died. I think what was done for him, was proberly the best that cpould have happened in the situation, but as you say you'll never know. Woody I don't want a flame war either, life's too short! The figures I have quoted are from the Resuscitation Council (UK) publication "Advanced Life Support" I'm from an acute/critical care background; originally cardiology & A&E years ago and have been involved in many successful resus situations. As a Resuscitation Officer I teach doctors, nurses and hospital staff how to manage medical emergencies and deal with resuscitation. Prompt and correct treatment of a primary cardiac arrest has a good chance of a successful outcome. It will be interesting to see if the second PM shows anything new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Whilst I agree it looks strange from the outside, are you suggesting that all (private corporate) companies with premises in these areas are on a cover up on behalf of the police? I think that's a little stranger myself. I am suggesting that we are being asked to believe something which is unbelievable, and that embarassing CCTV footage has a habit of being *unavailable* when the Met drops a *******, as at Stockwell. Do you know Cornhill and Royal Exchange? A mouse could not cross the street without being caught on camera. Yet we are told, by the chairman of the IPCC, that there is no footage of the events surrounding Ian Tomlinson`s death. It would strain the credulousness of a 7 year old. What does surprise me is what appears to be a deep seated hatred of the police from some on here. One guy may or may not have made a mistake but all police seem to be fair game to some. Sad really. No hatred here. But I do object to being lied to and taken for a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 "The testimony I quoted relates to a seperate, earlier alleged assault. As far as I know it was not filmed, but three witnesses claim to have seen it." well it must be true then!!!!!!!!!* It is what it is ....... independent eyewitness testimony from three members of the public which is entirely consistent with the way Ian Tomlinson was treated in his final encounter with the police near Royal Exchange Buildings. And unlike the police and the IPCC these witnesses have not discredited themselves by misleading the public and the media. Er........... Stab in the dark on this one........... IPCC stands for INDEPEDENT............. Point of order ....... the IPCC is about as *independent* and credible as the Northern Rock bank. It is a widely discredited organization ..... as discredited as the Police Complaints Authority that it replaced ...... and it`s behaviour in this and other cases raises serious doubts about it`s effectiveness and impartiality. For five days after Tomlinson`s death they maintained the line that Ian Tomlinson had simply collapsed and died from a heart attack without any contact with police, despite ample eyewitness testimony that flatly contradicted their version of events. They appointed the City of London police to oversee the investigation despite the involvement of City police officers in events surrounding Tomlinson`s death, a very serious error. We are asked to believe that there are no CCTV recordings of these events, yet when film footage taken by a member of the public emerges which makes their position untenable became public their first instinct seems to be to try and suppress it. Not very impressive so far, is it? and the reason why they take a Police officer with them is so the "newspaper" or company know they are a genuine request for CCTV footage and not a bougus request. The IPCC often take on matters against the police so now you are saying that they are corrupt as well? They asked for the "film to be taken down from the website" to prevent an UNFAIR trial or invesitgation, AS THEY WOULD FOR ANY MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC UNDER INVESTIGATION, it is not to brush it under the table as you seem to think is going to happen. The police officer still has rights just like any other person!!!! It seems to me that the police officer in question has been accorded rather more *rights* than the average man in the street. If I behaved in a similar fashion and a man subsequently died, it is a pretty safe bet I would now be in custody on suspicion of murder. The worst that has happened to this officer so far is a spell of sick leave on full pay. It also prevents a guilty person getting away with a crime by saying that any forth coming trial is unfair becuase people have now already formed their opinion of what has happened because of unfair press of the showing of the video. That`s all very well and good ...... but when the IPCC called at the offices of the Guardian they said nothing about the film clip possibly prejudicing future legal proceedings. They based their request on an assertion that the film was *upsetting* to the Tomlinson family, despite the fact that the family had been asking for fresh witnesses to come forward since day one. The newspaper quite rightly refused to take down the film and the IPCC left empty handed. Following your argument to it`s logical end, the continuation of the film clip in the public domain would make any future legal proceedings unfair. Is that what you`re saying? You seem to stand up for a persons rights and yet you don't have a clue what has truely happend. I know a man who was trying to get home from work and had committed no crime was twice assaulted by police officers. I know he subsequently collapsed and died within moments of the second assault. I know the IPCC and the police have been misleading the public and the media. I know somebody has been planting scurillous stories about the dead man in The Sun & The Daily Mail. The wretched Mail even doctored a picture by doing a PhotoShop job on his shirt to make it perfectly clear to everyone that the deceased was a *Millwall Supporter*. That`s enough to be going on with ................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnamaniac Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 The Sun and the Mail are on no ones side excpet their circulation. I read with interest the tactic the tactical units use to hide their identities and laughed my **** of when they forgot to mention each officer has a bloody big number on the back of his helmet. Eye witness accounts are a double edged sword, a socialology experiment showed that if 10 people witness a event then they would get 10 different variations on the incident. I'm not saying that the three `witnesses` are not of use but we also need the context of what they saw. What we have is a lot of speculation on what happened to that man, but no proof. Was he assaulted once twice or not at all. Is there CCTV footage, well until I see in the official report i'll wait in judgement. But a company is not obliged to give the police its footage, it needs a court order to get the footage and some businesses will fight that court order as they do not want people knowing where there CCTV cameras are pointing or what resolution they are capable of recording in. One thing I have not found is about the lack of CCTV footage, the guardian make no reference, and nor do any other sources, I would be interested in finding out where this has come from. Finally it also states that other eye witnesses say their was not contact before hand with the police, thus demonstrating clearly what I was saying about eye witnesses. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justintime Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I expect plenty more in the same vein about poor Ian Tomlinson. It`s what the Met do when they screw up and someone dies ...... they cover up, lie and smear. its a government thing. Its not just the Met mate the police force in general needs a good looking into all be it common sence they aint got any Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Seems one or two on here think they know a great deal but in reality know very little. Would also appear they have an rather unhealthy interest in what's going on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Bagsy So you would rather no one asked questions and that you consider a questioning attitude? that simply shows you as a single minded bigot who does not allow free speech?m you should join the police mate you are perfect for them? as to me its healthy to question and dig and unhealthy to control by not allowing free thought and opinion, fortunately those who seek the truth will ALWAYS outnumber the lying scheming **** who don't? cheers KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Bagsy So you would rather no one asked questions and that you consider a questioning attitude? that simply shows you as a single minded bigot who does not allow free speech?m you should join the police mate you are perfect for them? as to me its healthy to question and dig and unhealthy to control by not allowing free thought and opinion, fortunately those who seek the truth will ALWAYS outnumber the lying scheming soda who don't? cheers KW Good answer Kdubya, well done. A single minded bigot I obviously am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Carter - as someone has already pointed out, you make two posts then come alive on this one. Forgive me if I am wrong, but you seem to have a hidden agenda, which appears to be anti authority. I don't like what I saw on the video, but the truth will emerge. As CCTV was working - just disclosed- perhaps your ascension to the Spanish throne might yet happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Bagsy So you would rather no one asked questions and that you consider a questioning attitude? that simply shows you as a single minded bigot who does not allow free speech?m you should join the police mate you are perfect for them? as to me its healthy to question and dig and unhealthy to control by not allowing free thought and opinion, fortunately those who seek the truth will ALWAYS outnumber the lying scheming **** who don't? cheers KW didn't you accuse me of "hiding behind a type writer"!!!!!! and about free speech, blah blah....... Your opinion is the only right one and it is YOU that are the one that is abusive in your replies to EVERYONE. Read all your posts back and you will see what I mean. Even when someone points out you are incorrect in your facts you abuse them and say you are not. You are not an MP by any chance are you? coz you sure do talk a load of old ****** and know everything about nothing!!!!!!!!!!!! You sound like the sort of person that loves to attend demonstrations and riots to have your say. miners, football etc ( your words, not mine) were you bullied at school? did somone use to take your diner money from you?? You are one angry know it all man!! If I ever have a problem sleeping at night, I will give you a ring, reckon I will be asleep in seconds!!! Another bloke on here ( CARTER59) has posted 2 posts since he joined in 2005 and they were in 2005 and about 12 posts just on this subject alone in 2009!!!!!! He must have been in a coma for the last 4 years coz he hasn't stopped on this topic yet CARTER59, You seem to know it all, I will pass your details on to the invesitgation team, reckon you have every angle covered, we don't need CCTV when there are people like you to solve crimes and mysteries. Do you know what happned to Shergar? or come to think of it, do you know what happened to Robert Maxwell?? or What about Dianas accident? or was it not an accident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh dear lost have you? dummy out of the pram typical of a control freak who finds he actually cant! please allow me to put you on my ignore list. goodnight and god bless. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted April 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 As CCTV was working - just disclosed- perhaps your ascension to the Spanish throne might yet happen. His accession to the Spanish throne might also happen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Oh deary deary me seems like even the ipcc ain't that independent what the hell is going on in this country ? it seem lies and innuendo are the accepted norm!!! so much for the conspiracy theorists and the "let the ipcc do their job lads" fortunately the truth does eventually come out. KW http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7997990.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 As CCTV was working - just disclosed- perhaps your ascension to the Spanish throne might yet happen. There`s an error of logic there. I said * yes, and I`m the King of Spain* if there was *NO* CCTV coverage, which is what IPCC chief Hardwick claimed on Channel 4 news. Now it transpires that there *IS* footage .... surprise, surprise ..... so alas there is no palace in Madrid for me. It was a ridiculous and unbelievable claim which they withdrew today ...... nearly two weeks after the event ..... after being sent photographs and diagrams pointing out the locations of the cameras in Cornhill and Royal Exchange. The area is well covered by CCTV, and any person with a pair of eyes and average intelligence could have found this out for themselves with a ten minute stroll along the streets in question. And these people are supposed to be professional investigators? Ermmmmm .................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 sonic me old blinkered mate I don't live in cloud cuckoo land I live in a land of reality, a land where sadly lies and innuendo rule, and a land where our so called protectors scheme and cheat and do their level best to lose what little respect they have. Keep on with your tripe writer one day you may post something logical and sensible and with a grain of truth to it, every post you have made has so far been shot down by emerging fact, fact unearthed by the nasty people who have the temerity to question, and realise that (AS YET) we are NOT a police state, ie your chosen utopia keep sucking the dummy mate. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justintime Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) LADS BEATING EACH OTHER UP IS NOT THE THING TO DO WE ARE ALL FRIENDS on here, Now lets all agree on the face of it the copper was wrong but we wernt there, The truth will come out!! We all also know that the establishment is bent that we all live in and Justice is just a word that very few understand I beleve there are 2 types of justic 1x what the law gives the other moral and if some one is moraly right then that should be right but the pc bregade have got this countery f ed up and no amount of diging at each other on here will change that . Edited April 14, 2009 by Justintime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I forgot but your idiocy reminded me? and hey I had to respond eh! plod on plod on suck suck KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I just woke my wife up and asked her " Do you go on Pigeon Watch and use the name KDUBYA?" She said " No why?" I said " well, it's just that once a month for 4 days you have to have the last word, think you know everything, I can't get a word in edgeways, you moan about **** all, go back on your word and every other person in the world is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" So it is true then.. coppers spend more time typing than doing real police work. You come across really well on here mate Not at all easily wound up or petty ! You will make sargeant one day. Keep up the good work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter59 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 There are also cameras that maybe local police don't know exsist. Yes, they are government ones, special branch ones for counter terrorism, others for Transport For London (TFL) and local council ones!!!! some are covert, some overt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The police don't get a list of them or signs hanging off them inthe street labelling them as cameras But obvioulsy you would know that, you must be very high up!!! As you so rightly point out, the City is festooned with CCTV cameras, operated by a mix of public and private agencies. Which is why it was absurd of Nick Hardwick, chairman of the IPCC to claim on TV: "We don't have CCTV footage of the incident... there is no CCTV footage, there were no cameras in the location where he was assaulted." It isn`t surprising that the IPCC lacks credibility when they come out with nonsense like that. It is not like The Bill you know. The Police don't have it all wrapped up in 30 minutes. Fat chance. The inquest will take years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted April 15, 2009 Report Share Posted April 15, 2009 Oh Lord they do themselves no favours whatsoever, here is another one that the IPCC will be able to "checkout" and now that the truly rabid chakrabarti is involved, it will do the genuine cops no good at all, maverick reactionary and wannabee controllers are sinking Britain's police force as quick as the titanic, and destroying credibility and respect full stop. The police of this country need to to re group and get back to their purpose ( if they can still remember what it is) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7999277.stm KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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