Baldrick Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 As for some of the seriously negative comments directed at the police, such as "Send them all to Afghanistan." Think on - Who has to deliver the death message to Mrs Miggins to say that her husband has been killed on the way to work. Who has to deal with the distraught parents of a toddler run over in the street. Who goes and sits and comforts the old lady who's been the victim of some low life scum who's nicked her lifes' savings whilst pretending to be the gas man. What the bloody hell would going to Afghanistan contribute to that! Pedro, I assume that comment is directed at me - if so, you have misinterpreted it. I never said, "send them all to Afghaninstan". I never have and never will hold that view. I freely accept that the British police have a very tough, often demoralising job, with zero support received from HMG. My comment about Helmand and Iraq was directed specifically at ph5172, because I think his regular, arrogant use of the Roosevelt quote about heroics doesn't impress me, nor do I think it is relevant. The significant number of people on here who have served in Helmand, Iraq or various other ****pits, me included, do not preach about it in such a high-handed way. If ph5172 has the same dismissive attitude to everyone, then it makes the use of that quote all the more contrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 It looks bad when seen in isolation. Man just ambling along gets hit from behind and pushed to the floor. I understand the Policemen has owned up - which shows a bit of courage. Okay - somebody will say he was bound to be identified, but his side has not been heard. If the man had done absolutely nothing, then the Policeman will pay the price for what would be unprovoked assault. Whatever the rights or wrongs, my sympathy to the man's family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuffy Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 in a heated situation someone got hurt , big deal . seems to be to many liberal/lefty dogooders about who would like to lock up every cop who acts a bit hastily . when they have all finish wailing about police brutality and disarmed/locked up all the cops who would be left to stop the likes of bin ladin & co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Cuffy Got to agree ! This country is soft and there are too many do gooders who are all too ready to pounce on the police at every opportunity. Each and every day police officers put themselves in situations that the vast majority of the public will never find themselves in ! Despite all the facts and figures , society is becoming more violent. Long gone are the dixon of dock green days of policing, when a word or a clip round the ear worked. Once again , no one was on TV or in the press stating their horror at the violence and abuse the police were subject to by these so called protestors ! G8 and G20 etc are now just excuses for all these lefty, soap dodging , tree hugging hippies to cause mayhem, damage and whatever else they think they can get away with ! If the police were not there how much would it have cost the taxpayer ? Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I am sure that in an ideal world, or in any world, the correct course of action would be to arrest and hold the person doing the obstructing - i don't think anyone would disagree with that, including most police officers. If some one is acting the ***, public order or obstruction offences then that is the easiest way to deal with them in general....but we are talking about an area that has been given extra attention due to the protest [and probably given extra powers to officers to more rigorously deal with people causing problems] I would suggest that the officrs were told specifically not to arrest people for low level public order offences etc, as for every one arrested you need at least 2 officers to deal with it and you would very soon run out of officers..I am sure there would be more complaints if that happened as the 'destructive' protestors would have free rain to loot and burn - I am sure no one would wish that, especially a police officer - but as always this is to do with government and money [to put enough police in an area and to pay for them], but it is the police who take the flack. Again there are only a set number of 'home office approved' ways of using the equipment, battons cuffs etc and as I mentioned before the hitting the leg and pushing away with the batton are both such. Don't get me wrong...if the officer was out of order in using them then I hope it is found out, but it is hard to judge on the few seconds you see before the act. The fact he has his hands in his pockets I would suggest is because, as someone else has mentioned, had he had them out and waving the dog would have managed to get hold of him. My last post ended wondering if there was anything earlier that had happened and it looks as if there may have been...again until it is investigated we won't know. I just hope it is investigated quickly for everyones sake. Policing in this country is still 'with public consent' [as it should be] it couldn't be done otherwise, and I agree that incidents like this do not look good and damage the police reputation. The sad thing is that everything seems to have spin on it these days and more often than not the whole story never gets told, people are still left wondering and I hope that won't be the case this time for the man's family. Anyway on another note it is good that things like this can be discussed on a forum like this without it becoming base and abusive[as happens on another hunting forum]!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildgoose1uk Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 in a heated situation someone got hurt , big deal . seems to be to many liberal/lefty dogooders about who would like to lock up every cop who acts a bit hastily . when they have all finish wailing about police brutality and disarmed/locked up all the cops who would be left to stop the likes of bin ladin & co. I have long supported the idea of an armed police force but I have to say I am thankful the police were not armed on that day. The vast majority of the people at the demonstration were law abiding sincere people with deeply held beliefs. as widely publicised it was a small minority that wanted to cause trouble. This is well known. we all have to take the consequences of our actions and to be brutally honest all we have seen is that an hour earlier he stood in front of a police van - who knows why... perhaps it is as simple that he had just had enough of trying to get home and being blocked by the police every time so he decided to block them - Is this a reason to die? I think not. If you treat a middle aged man im this manner you have to take the consequences for what outcomes could be reasonably foreseen - What are the stats for middleaged people in the UK with heart disease? I appreciate that the police werre under a massive amount of strain and pressure but it is down to the service to ensure that the officers on duty are trained and that the officers mentality is such that this will not happen. This was not a military operation, this was not a war zone. This was London - my work and home for over 20 years. Credit must go to the police for the good they did and that we did not see a repeat of the poll tax demonstrations but, to go further back, have we really learned so little since the miner's strike of the 80's? We can only thank God that it was not Arthur Scargill's miners that the police were up against or the reaction to this incident would have been one still of indignation but much more phsyically shown. The police do not have an easy job to do - we all know that. But it is their choice to put on a uniform and they owe us a duty not to overreact. I have seen that the officer involved owned up - I give him no credit for that whatsoever - One thing that came out of the miner's strike was that since then the police have had their numbers on their riot overalls so he would have quickly been identified. I have also heard that he may be chagred with assault..... assault.... Would the charge be one of assault if one of the protesters had killed a policeman? Ok... rant over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Cuffy Got to agree ! This country is soft and there are too many do gooders who are all too ready to pounce on the police at every opportunity. Each and every day police officers put themselves in situations that the vast majority of the public will never find themselves in ! Despite all the facts and figures , society is becoming more violent. Long gone are the dixon of dock green days of policing, when a word or a clip round the ear worked. Once again , no one was on TV or in the press stating their horror at the violence and abuse the police were subject to by these so called protestors ! G8 and G20 etc are now just excuses for all these lefty, soap dodging , tree hugging hippies to cause mayhem, damage and whatever else they think they can get away with ! If the police were not there how much would it have cost the taxpayer ? Col You are totally missing the point and justifying a harmless man getting a beating and possibly ending up dead because of it by saying the police do a difficult job and faced lots of abuse and voilence off OTHER people that day is just ridiculous.The police do a difficult job and society is more violent these days but you cant use that as an excuse for police to assault people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Blackbart - agree entirely. I have quite a number of friends in the force, but none would condone what happened. Despite all the goings on - a man has died shortly after this assault. People seem to treat this very casually and dismiss it. That is appalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 That's like saying if you dawdle across the road it's ok to run you over.After all you could have avoided being run over if you walked faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 When the kitchens on fire you get out ,he played the game and lost .unfortunataly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 When the kitchens on fire you get out ,he played the game and lost .unfortunataly Yea and you would say that if it was your dad wouldnt you ! Or another copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justintime Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) First of all the blow to the back of his legs could have caused/dislodged a blood clot resulting in the heart attack as for the officer involved as pedro says theres few of them unfortunately theres more bent coppers now than ever before, And as has been said a lot are ex service men and they do close ranks to hide things, It was no differant in the 80s during the miners strike, and before you all start banging on about this i was there and saw first hand the brutality the prevokeing by the police.Mounted police charging picket lineson horse back At wopping they even sent the dogs in indiscrimanately the only good thing that came out of that was a couple of coppers got bitten as well , The POLICE have a hard job and i always beleved they stood for fair play truth, as more & more of these things occour it makes me wonder. As for ph5172 i know this bloke personally and all i will say is he has been in more Sh@t than you or i will ever see and he has to be one of the bravest men i have the pleasure of calling friend Edited April 11, 2009 by Justintime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Yea and you would say that if it was your dad wouldnt you ! Or another copper. I ,ve been about enough to realise that when its KICKING off to get out of there ! and if i don,t bail out then the fault is mine what ever might happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I ,ve been about enough to realise that when its KICKING off to get out of there ! and if i don,t bail out then the fault is mine what ever might happen. So do most people but it is hard to "get out of there"when you are penned in like cattle and not feeling very well. If it was a plod that was assaulted and then died the bloke who hit him with a stick and then threw himself at him knocking him to the ground would be on remand charged with murder never mind suspended fom work(probably on full pay).But because some people were causing trouble that day some people seem to think it's ok that a bloke who was in the wrong place at the wrong time was killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 So do most people but it is hard to "get out of there"when you are penned in like cattle and not feeling very well.If it was a plod that was assaulted and then died the bloke who hit him with a stick and then threw himself at him knocking him to the ground would be on remand charged with murder never mind suspended fom work(probably on full pay).But because some people were causing trouble that day some people seem to think it's ok that a bloke who was in the wrong place at the wrong time was killed. What was he doing there ? selling the evening mail or rioting ,or just a onlooker.if i was in the area of riot police i would,nt have my hands in my pocket with my BACK to them.i,d be clued up on my toes waiting for it whether that a EXIT or confrontation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 What was he doing there ? selling the evening mail or rioting ,or just a onlooker.if i was in the area of riot police i would,nt have my hands in my pocket with my BACK to them.i,d be clued up on my toes waiting for it whether that a EXIT or confrontation . Doesn't matter what he was doing there!! Are you saying in certain circumstances the police can kill citizens because they are dawdling,in the way or are not clued up enough to run away ! You are going to stick up for the plod no matter what so just forget it.He probably killed someone and he will probably get away with it because once your a cop you are above the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Doesn't matter what he was doing there!! Are you saying in certain circumstances the police can kill citizens because they are dawdling,in the way or are not clued up enough to run away ! You are going to stick up for the plod no matter what so just forget it.He probably killed someone and he will probably get away with it because once your a cop you are above the law mate i hav,nt got that MUCH time for the system .but he was in a HOT situation.and he knew it ,just like the kids that get in knock off cars that crash and they die they played the GAME AND LOST . the police are not holy than thou they car,nt be its the nature of the job they hav ,nt got the time too judge each person when theres hundreds performing ,yes its wrong but thats life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I agree kids that nick cars are in the "game"as you call it,but newspaper sellers on their way home do not really come into the catagory of Playing the game and wether he was dawdling,ill,drunk or whatever he didnt deserve to be assaulted by a police officer.Why cant you see that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAN88 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 think we,ll agree to disagree on this one mate shame we carnt talk over a pint face to face.cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Blackbart I am not condoning or justifying anything. Merely trying to explain to someone such as yourself who has never been in that situation. Baton striking protestors/football hooligans across the back of the legs is a common tactic to move them on, as is shoving them along when they fail to move on. As has been said earlier , he was standing in front of a police van earlier and then to me quite clearly dawdling to delay those officers clearing that street ! Not the actions of an innocent newspaper seller on his way home to me ! My post was trying to explain that due to increasing violence from the public, police officers now have to use more force now than ever before. Trust me , my colleagues and i would love it if everyone just came quietly. I personally have been one of six officers stuck in between over 100 football hooligans trying to get to each other, you do what is necessary ! As for arresting everyone , not feasible, it removes too many officers from the streets, as was said earlier. I do appreciate that there are police who just use their uniform to dish out violence but i am not one of those, as for someone's comment that there are more bent coppers than ever, i doubt it , due to professional standards depts they are more readily discovered and dealt with , so now we hear more of it ! But where is the support for those officers facing the violence of these so called protestors and the condemnation towards them for the damage and chaos they caused ? Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 You assume i have not been in that situation....And you assume wrong but that is another matter. I am not having a go at all police,far from it.What get's my goat is why do the police feel they have to defend another copper who steps outside of the law.I understand the "hot"situation that DAY,but watch the video again.There is nothing being thrown at the advancing police line,no direct threat and the protesters were keeping a good distance from the line.The chap who got clobbered wasn't and he was assaulted for it.He was not just "pushed",his feet left the ground because he was pushed so hard.If the man was facing the line and threatening then he deserved to be put down but walking away with his hands in his pockets ? Like i have been trying to say, the people that are defending the cop's actions are saying things like what about the violence the police faced that day,the abuse,we are living in more violent times !All of that means jack ****.If i had assaulted someone and used any of them lines as a defence the judge would think i was having a laugh.You can't beat people up cos your having a bad day! The police is no different to any other large organisation.There are bound to be some people that abuse their position but unlike other organisations the police seem like they would rather do whatever they can to keep the bad'uns than admit there IS bad'uns. Anyway may your next shift be quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 mate i hav,nt got that MUCH time for the system .but he was in a HOT situation.and he knew it , No he wasn't he was walking home from work in England, a free country last time I looked He ws smirking, capital offence??? He was dawdling?? yet again capital offence He didn't move when told, again another capital offence He'd had a drink right then execute him All you "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" mercahnts make me laugh Just don't come bleating to me WHEN it happens to you, as it will. How many have been legitamately shooting on their permission when confronted with the ARU and the helicopter, for instance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col1888 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 No he wasn't he was walking home from work in England, a free country last time I lookedHe ws smirking, capital offence??? He was dawdling?? yet again capital offence He didn't move when told, again another capital offence He'd had a drink right then execute him All you "if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" mercahnts make me laugh Just don't come bleating to me WHEN it happens to you, as it will. How many have been legitamately shooting on their permission when confronted with the ARU and the helicopter, for instance? Fullbore It is usually members of the public who report people shooting to the Police ! They then have to deal with it in a manner that is safe and appropriate, until they can obtain the full facts ie. shooters with permission Col Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toka_shigazu Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 Sorry Fullbore, but now if you have already been spoken to by police and your behaviour was sutch that you were asked to move on but you dont and continue to cause problems, you can be arrested. It isn't mere dawdling as the officers are there to quite rightly do a job, the number of officrs it takes to deal with one person can quite clearly be seen here and it detracts from what they should be concerned with/or what they are ordered to do. Imagine if protestors were involved in a fight around the corner or setting fire to a building, the public would rightlt expect the police to react and deal with that but they cannot afford to leave a possible protestor behind for fear of 'coming under fire' from front and back. This is why the police have been given more rigorous powers to deal with public order incidents...it isn't 'normal' policing that the general public would see [thankfully] By the sounds of it this man had already been playing up and had been asked to leave the area, and yes as many have alread said in an ideal world he would have been arrested, but the bottom line then is force can be used against the man. Again it has to be reasonable and proportionate [home office approved move, which the push with a batton is as is the leg strike] and justified [well it appears that he had been asked to move on at least once, possibly more]. As long as the officer can justify what has happened and can be considered acting lawfully then he cannot be held to account for any reulting injuries etc. It is a great shame that in this instance someone has lost their life 'cos of it!!! But as many have said, when you ignore the instruction of the police [who are giving those instruction for the purpose of trying to make sure members of the public and property are kept safe], then you do it at your risk. We will have to wait for the outcome and the full facts [or as full as we will get] to come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 12, 2009 Report Share Posted April 12, 2009 The man is pushed in the back, when he has his hands in his pockets. He was just about quick enough to get his hands out of his pockets to cushion his impact. I don't know what went on before and looking at it again, I am not really interested. This was unnecessary force in my book. We can argue to the cows come home, but the Policeman will be prosecuted. Then it's up to a jury, who will hear the full facts, to decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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