The Changing Face of Gundogs

[Dave C]

There was a very interesting artical 2 weeks ago in the shooting times, by Mr Lindsay Waddell.

He describes old keepers dogs and how versitile they had to be, he also goes on to say how cross breeds are becoming more popular once again ie sprockers and the like.

He then goes on to write how GWP are now being crossed over Lab bitches and in the main are producing excellent working dogs with all the attributes of both breeds, working game with a tender mouth, as well as dealing with all the pest species that keepers face, be used to check traps and track deer, this means the dog can be used all year round not only in the shooting season.

 

I noticed this week in the Sporting Answers section, the question of whether this would be a good cross was asked and Mr Paul Rawlings of the shooting times advised against it.

 

I know alot of experienced Gundog folk on this site dont agree with any crossing of perfectly good existing breeds, but this dose sound in theory a good match, if all of the good points of each breed are carried over, of course there is a good chance of bad points also being past down, but please let me know your thoughts.

 

Dave.

[WGD]

if all of the good points of each breed are carried over

 

Too big an "if" IMO. Why cross breeds which have been refined over generations to excel in a particular area?

 

Responsible breeding (i.e. complimentary sire/dam, as wide a gene pool as possible and all relevant and recommended health testing done) of pedigree stock for me please.

 

Each to their own, breeding mongrels just ain't for me.

[lewis]

breeding mongrels just ain't for me.

 

[GW80]

Both my springers are full breed dogs and the lab i had before was a pedigree, but my dad is a big fan of cross breeds. The best dog he every had was a black lab that had collie in the line and he was a cracking dog who was still working till the age of 14, he was an unbelievable wee dog, i hope i get to own a dog as good someday. My dad also had a Lab/Pointer cross (i think they used to be called droppers or something like) years ago before i was born who he raves about as a great dog, so i suppose it's personal prefernce, i myself will be sticking to full breed dogs that i know the breeding, but definetley some good cross bred dogs out there!

[tiercel]

Too big an "if" IMO. Why cross breeds which have been refined over generations to excel in a particular area?

 

Responsible breeding (i.e. complimentary sire/dam, as wide a gene pool as possible and all relevant and recommended health testing done) of pedigree stock for me please.

 

Each to their own, breeding mongrels just ain't for me.

 

All pedigree dogs have had out crosses in their make up. As you state a wider gene pool is needed, then perhaps there would be no need for hip scoring and the such.

 

As an example I do not think that there is a working cocker today without Windmillwood, Maesydderwyn, Housty or Wernfrwyd in their pedigree somewhere. It was the same with Labs 20 to 30 years ago nearly every pedigree of a working lab at that time had Sandringham Sidney or a descendant in its pedigree. The close inbreeding of these dogs destroy the breed, in that it causes too many medical problems.

 

Nearly every working dog was bred for a specific purpose, by crossing suitable dogs until they bred true to type. Some were bred because of the topography of the land that they were expected to work. Others were bred to do a single job i.e. cockers and springers. Some were bred not to work game at all but bred for fishing as in the lab, but people saw their potential as a retriever and utilised that to make them a gun dog.

 

A prime example of an out cross is where coursing greyhounds were out crossed to bull terriers to get a stronger dog. Anther factor with out crossing is hybrid vigour it is that unknown factor that will see you perhaps never taking a dog to the vets in its life. After generations of breeding from a limited gene pool with all the risks health wise to the dogs an outcross can bring a new lease of life to a gene pool.

 

So I would not be so quick to condemn this interbreeding between different breeds of dogs it could be the saviour of the breed.

 

TC

[teal27]

I have a springer/ lab cross, she looks just like a chocolate and white springer with a lab coat,

I had a choice of a ped ess or lab and i chose her instead and very glad i did. Shes fantastic, she sits by my side until i tell her to retrieve, she brings any dummy or pigeon back to my hand and holds it until i say give, she can sniff and find dummies that ive hid in long over growth, she will retrieve from water too and she will stay with me when a shotgun round goes off 6 ft away.

Shes not even 10 months old yet, so imagine what she will be like at 2 years.

Believe me a springer cross lab is an excellent mix and wouldnt be surprised if it turns out to be a breed of its own in the near future. Highly recomend them to any one wanting an excellent gun dog.

[Highlander]

So all you guys out there who own a ‘pedigree’ dog think that’s how they originated...imaculate conception?

 

All our breeds have originated by crossing and breeding in or out to obtain the desired traits we want and most bear little resemblance to the original (take labs for instance). Given the system for registering a pedigree dog (which is based wholly on trust ha ha) don’t you think it still goes on and that many so called 'pedigree' animals have got some other introduced bloodlines in them? And at the end of the day if you end up with a better working animal how bad is that?

[hurstpol]

So all you guys out there who own a ‘pedigree’ dog think that’s how they originated...imaculate conception?

 

All our breeds have originated by crossing and breeding in or out to obtain the desired traits we want and most bear little resemblance to the original (take labs for instance). Given the system for registering a pedigree dog (which is based wholly on trust ha ha) don’t you think it still goes on and that many so called 'pedigree' animals have got some other introduced bloodlines in them? And at the end of the day if you end up with a better working animal how bad is that?

 

 

I totally agree the development of breeds has always been a mongrel business, there are very few pure breeds left in the world, all so called pedigree dogs have gone through an accelerated evolution process mostly for cosmetic reasons, you just have to look at some of the so called exotics to see that, they are all mongrels, and some worse than others, the damage to animals as a result is plainly evident with problems of the respiratory system in some breeds as the bulldog is an example, Pedigree means nothing it is just a mongrel with a comprehensive family tree

Edited June 1, 2009 by hurstpol

[Dave C]

Thanks for the replys, its good to see people debaiting the issue instead of just condeming me for finding the artical intresting (AS YOU FIND ON SOME OTHER SITES).

 

Why i found it so interesting is i have recently been looking for a pup and i have struggled choosing been between a GWP or a Lab, both of which i admire and have owned before.

I decided on a Lab, mainly because i found a good hard hunting strain breed by a local keeper and because they mature quicker and finding myself without a gundog i need something to shoot over fairly quickly.

As a vermin shooter the GWP would also be ideal for me, but i would only get one while having an existing dog working or i would be to tempted to shoot over it before it was ready.

 

As for the cross, i can imagine if you could get the best of both breeds it would be a very handy dog indeed, but there is no guarentees of that, but hats off and best of luck of to those who dare give it a try.

 

Dave.

[WGD]

Fair enough all dogs have outcrosses in their past, all dogs are mongrels if you want to look at them in evolutionary terms.

 

But what has been achieved by breeding pedigree dogs are various breeds of dog whose traits have been refined over decads so they now excel at particular, specialised tasks within the shooting field. If you introduce a completely different set of traits you might be lucky and get the best of both, but in reality you have little idea what you'll get.

 

If you put a ferrari engine in a series II landy you're not going to have a ferrari that can go anywhere or a landy that can compete on a race track.

[al4x]

the secondary point is ok you do a cross of two pedigree dogs and then breed from one of the offspring and you start having heinz 57 dogs that could turn out looking like one of a number of possibilities.

[Piebob]

As for the cross, i can imagine if you could get the best of both breeds it would be a very handy dog indeed, but there is no guarentees of that, but hats off and best of luck of to those who dare give it a try.

 

As a schoolboy / student I used to do a lot of grouse beating. One of the best dogs I can recall was a lab GWP cross. He wasn't the best looking of beasts - let's just say he had "character". He did, however, hunt through heather all day long and at the end of the drive would be used to pick birds as well. He was a typical keepers dog - happy enough to be petted by kids but not overly bothered at the same time. He used to stand at the back gate of the Unimog, with his rear legs on the floor of the truck and his front legs on the rear step/seat, looking out at the passing landscape. It was almost like he was enjoying the scenery as much as the rest of us.

[Dave C]

Both my springers are full breed dogs and the lab i had before was a pedigree, but my dad is a big fan of cross breeds. The best dog he every had was a black lab that had collie in the line and he was a cracking dog who was still working till the age of 14, he was an unbelievable wee dog, i hope i get to own a dog as good someday. My dad also had a Lab/Pointer cross (i think they used to be called droppers or something like) years ago before i was born who he raves about as a great dog, so i suppose it's personal prefernce, i myself will be sticking to full breed dogs that i know the breeding, but definetley some good cross bred dogs out there!

 

I have herd them called droppers before or Irish Droppers, dose anyone know why.

 

Dave.