Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Following my read and interpretation of the thread in the off topic section titled “furious at work” – which managed to get “derailed” rabbiting on another totally unrelated subject, it was suggested that a new thread be created to discuss the matter further. So I thought id seize the opportunity and create the tread starting with my own opinion on the matter. The previous thread became hijacked when someone stated that the rules and regulations on gun ownership in the UK should be dropped, effectively granting any idiot the god given right to purchase a firearm with potentially disastrous consequences. And that it may be an idea to adopt a similar licensing system as which is currently enforced in some U.S states. When on holiday in Florida last year, we ventured off into a BASS Hunting store, to which I was immediately drawn to the gun section. On display were a wide variety of guns, from air rifles, shotguns, pistols to automatic rifles and just about every conceivable thing in-between; it was Aladdin’s cave to the gun enthusiast. I approached the pistol counter and asked the store attendant what a person would need to do to buy a gun, his reply was simple “Provide ID that the buyer was over the age of 18, and prove they were a U.S citizen, and pay” simples. Now I don’t know about you, but if it were that simple to buy a 9mm or a .45 ACP in the UK, id have one right away, in a nice little shoulder holster and would carry it everywhere I would go, be it alone or with the family, even more so if I were with the family. I love shooting, its arguably my favourite past time, and when the opportunity arises, its difficult to say no, sort of an addiction, so one would think that I would no doubt think it would be fantastic if such laws were adopted. WRONG!! I personally think it would be one of the biggest mistakes this country could do to adopt the U.S rules concerning gun control (apart from electing Gordon Brown as MP). Could you imagine going about your daily business driving along the road, not knowing if the chaves who are congregated on the street corner are armed and dangerous or not? This is the reason I would arm myself immediately, because if they have guns, well ****** me, I want one too. As a shooter myself, I like the option of choosing when I open the safe and take my guns out, what I don’t want, is to have to do it out of necessity for personal protection, and I personally think that legalising concealed weapons would create this situation, I don’t want to carry a gun as openly as I carry my mobile phone, purely as a measure for self protection. Some might say that, how do you know that the chaves don’t already have concealed guns on them? And fair comment, I don’t, but that doesn’t mean to say that I agree with the idea of them being made freely available to them does it? Which is all that will happen if the U.S laws are adopted. So to conclude my opinion: I personally think to agree with the idea that U.S laws be adopted in the UK with regards to the issuing and licensing of guns / concealed weapons, is totally a selfish, childish and un-calculated view on a matter to which the opinionated clearly has had no thought or understanding. Rant over!! And I know this is a likely to be a touchy subject so expect to receive a lot of flack from some people, so please just bear in mind that this is my personal opinion and not necessarily the one of others. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
covlocks Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 The UK is never going to adopt anything of the like. There is more chance in this do-gooder run place of there being a complete ban on anything and everything that shoots even cotton wool balls. An American style licencing system may be introduced - but it will only allow you to buy a blunt table knife, as long as it has a rounded end and you promise not to use it to cut anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuck. Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Well I believe that someone made the comment that 'Crossbows should be licensed' and of course its only a mater of time before gun licensing leads to US gun laws.. Personally, I'd believe there would be less crime if we were to adopt sensible licensing from the US. The 'chaves' you refer to in your story would have not much more chance of possessing a firearm then they do now in my opinion, if firearms were kept as safely as they are in this country. Even i they did and they got caught carrying an illegal weapon, they'd still get the time, and before you think 'they would just shoot the police' of course we would require more armed police, but at least they would be more knowledgeable on firearms then some of the posts on here lead me to believe. You neglect to mention that most states in the US require a 'conceal carry permit' which allows citizens to freely carry any of their licensed firearms about on their person. What about if God forbid you were involved in an unfortunate episode of home invasion, and you fear for your life while an armed burglar is advancing on you and your family, you can't do anything for fear of reprisal from the Law.. In this country you can't win, many people might say 'I'd go to prison then', but it's not really winning, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'm with you Killjoy our system works a lot better than the states, I'm happier you have to be vetted and go through hoops for gun ownership, even the UK police don't want to be routinely armed. Our crime stats compared to the states show it works and lets face it a normal American has trouble not shooting people if the accident stats are to believed without adding into the mix any homicidal tendancies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Could you imagine the cost of training the police in the use of firearms? That would amount to millions of pounds worth of taxpayer’s money. Should crossbows be licensed? Debatable, maybe enforce something like the air rifle situation, that if any bow over a certain lb pressure would need to be licensed?? Therefore one could buy one openly if over a certain age so long as it was under a predefined pressure?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 i dont think anyone really wants gun laws exactly like the us, however i think that once were deemed suitable to own a firearm we should have more freedom - ie none of this jumping through hoops to prove you need a certain gun, and also that the emphasis should be placed on licencing the holder and not on the actual guns themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I personally think that the need to "jump through the hoops" etc is all part of the process that is necessary. I agree, why shouldnt a FAC holder with a .243 be granted a .308? but then again, if we could just go out and buy anything, i dont see how they could control it, accuratly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I personally think that the need to "jump through the hoops" etc is all part of the process that is necessary. I agree, why shouldnt a FAC holder with a .243 be granted a .308? but then again, if we could just go out and buy anything, i dont see how they could control it, accuratly. but why would they need to control it? imo there should be a test (like a driving test, for arguments sake) to determine your fitness to own firearms. if you pass you start off with shotguns, after a year or so you can get rimfires, then if you want centre fires do a further test and get whatever you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 So you're saying that, as long as the person has a FAC they can buy anything they like, and the government wouldnt need to know who has what gun on what license? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Gun laws in the states vary from state to state . I believe california being the most laxed and newyork being the tightest . My family live in new york state and I have been visiting for many years and have hunted deer and small game anad have never had any problem with using guns over there . In new york state a citizen is allowed to purchase a rifle or shotgun over the counter with proof of ID and proof of citizenship . All these transactions are reported to the police and serial numbers given . So there is a record of purchase and who owns the gun . Hand guns are much more controlled inso much as if you want to buy one the dealer has to submit your name and address to the police for them to contact you within 7 days . You will not be allowed to have the handgun untill you have had a visit from the police . The police will check you out for any criminal record and refuse you the right to purchase a hand gun if you do infact have a record . If you stack up to be a good citizen the police will issue you a purchasing form that you then take to the gun dealer to buy your gun . If you want to apply for a concealed carry permit you will then have to take a 5 day pistol course taken locally which is under the eye of the local sheriff or city police . Most of my cousins in new york state male and female have concealed carry permits . You dont need any permit to carry your pistol were it can be seen . Again this only applies to new york state , I dont know how other states work . Perhaps some of our american cousins can tell us . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Thanks Harnser, thats interesting... So if drop leg holster was worn, a person could legally carry around a pistol in the state of new york? This will never happen in this country, just try to imagine the cost of implimenting such systems.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Has anyone read the statistics that I posted in the other thread about gun control. IT DOESN'T WORK! Gun crime has gone up in the Uk since 1969 and especially armed Robberry. Crime is not motivated by guns but by opportunity and the opportunity to break armed into some poor old woman's house (since criminals don't really follow no gun laws) would be much easier rather than if the old woman was packing. Even in the USA the most dangerous cities like New York, Chigaco, Atlanta and Detroit all have draconian gun legislation which forbids any type of firearm without strict licensing in the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Contrary to popular belief.....you cannot own a gun in the USA if you are a felon, they still do a criminal backgrounds check. Once that is complete however you can own a much wider variety of weapons than in the UK. Also there is a 5 day waiting period. Hey Harnser, I didn't know New York had concealed carry laws, at the same time I thought the most lax gun laws were in Vermont and Hampshire where you don't need any paperworkj even for a concealed carry permit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Thanks Harnser, thats interesting... So if drop leg holster was worn, a person could legally carry around a pistol in the state of new york? This will never happen in this country, just try to imagine the cost of implimenting such systems.... contary to comman belief you dont see people walking around with pistols stuck in their belts , you know america is a little bit more civilised than that . The only time I have seen unconcealed handguns being carried is in shops , normally by the owner . Yes if you do have a legally owned hand gun you could carry it in whatever holster you wanted . I think that you would be concidered a bit of a **** though . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I have a friend in New Mexico he says that in his town a lot of people open carry and there hasn't been a murder in that town for like 20 years. An Armed society is a polite society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Has anyone read the statistics that I posted in the other thread about gun control. IT DOESN'T WORK! Gun crime has gone up in the Uk since 1969 and especially armed Robberry. Crime is not motivated by guns but by opportunity and the opportunity to break armed into some poor old woman's house (since criminals don't really follow no gun laws) would be much easier rather than if the old woman was packing. Even in the USA the most dangerous cities like New York, Chigaco, Atlanta and Detroit all have draconian gun legislation which forbids any type of firearm without strict licensing in the city. Correct me if im wrong, but aint you one of the persons who thinks the laws concerning guns should be more laxed?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 An Armed society is a polite society. Absolute Rubbish!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yes that is correct, in fact I think we should remmeber that here in the UK we technically have the Second Ammendment in relation to the 1689 Bill Of Rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 "Absolute Rubbish!!! " Your opinion of course. At the same time what makes you think your opinion is more important and want to force other to live by it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killjoy Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Dont we live in a Democracy?? So are you saying that If gun licensing in this country was more relaxed, there would be less gun crime?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostWomble Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) Just suppose there was a change in the law to make it more like the US, concealed carry, etc. Events would probably run like this: Lots of NIMBYs would continue not to have guns All the decent, law abiding shooters would have guns All the crims, nutters, Walter Mittys, etc would buy guns The latter group would make a mess, the police would respond and remove same from the population. Also among the crims would be an equal amount of vigilante types who would help reduce the number of this group even more (until they were ultimately shot by the police themselves). The NIMBYs would be outraged that there were guns on the street (because of course there are none now ), some would buy guns to feel safer but without training they would just become thier own worse enemies. Those with sense (including the law abiding shooters) would get decent defensive training. The crims that were left would realise that the general public are not easy picking any more. Road rage would stop overnight (although maybe after the first idiot with anger management issues is killed by a pensioner). So, after the enevitable increase in gun crime while the rot was removed, thing would settle down with the decent, law abiding shooters enjoying our sports and the NIMBYs accepting that guns don't kill people rabbits do. Edited August 25, 2009 by LostWomble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegasus bridge Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 i dont think anyone really wants gun laws exactly like the us, however i think that once were deemed suitable to own a firearm we should have more freedom - ie none of this jumping through hoops to prove you need a certain gun, and also that the emphasis should be placed on licencing the holder and not on the actual guns themselves this would be similar to the system in france Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yes lost womble I think that is an accurate description of events. A bit like wit the 24hr licence for some shops to sell alcohol, everyone expected pandemonium in the streets and the fact that Britain would grind to a halt form drunkeness. Well that hasn't happened and the alarmists were shown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LXX73 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yes lost womble I think that is an accurate description of events. A bit like wit the 24hr licence for some shops to sell alcohol, everyone expected pandemonium in the streets and the fact that Britain would grind to a halt form drunkeness. Well that hasn't happened and the alarmists were shown up. Have you seen A & E on a Fri/Sat night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 So you're saying that, as long as the person has a FAC they can buy anything they like, and the government wouldnt need to know who has what gun on what license? not the way i would have phrased it, but in essence yep you got it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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