Raja Clavata Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 So, our 9 month and a bit old GSP is more than just a bit unreliable on the recall. Home-made liver cake, my running in opposite directions - sometimes screaming like a lunatic - as he returns to me as well as behaving like a soppy **** to "make me more fun to be with" has limited and intermittent results. All of this is far from being the dogs fault, as I've written here previously we let him free-run when out walking too much when he was a wee pup, or more specifically did not nip things in the bud when he started ignoring the recall. We also went on hols for a week recently and it transpired that the dog trainer (obedience not gun dog) we left him with pretty much gave him the free run of 9 acres for large parts of the day in that time (chasing rabbits etc). So a fair bit to work on, getting a bit frustrated as it seems to be 2 steps forward then 3 back. Question is should I just persevere as I am, seek professional gun dog trainer assistance or consider more controlled measures such as an e-collar (which I have read has worked for other folks experiencing similar probs with GSP's and GWP's)? Should I also be reflecting on whether or not there is some other underlying issue that causes the recall problems? Maybe I'm rushing things and just need to take things a bit steadier but I take him to a specialised HPR class once a month and apart from getting shreds torn off me each time for making the previously described mistakes (which I can handle - even when the trainers go as far as suggesting the dog is wasted on me and I should consider exchanging him for a poodle - they've made it very clear they would take him on in an instant) it is really inhibiting progress as obviously retrieves, anywhere other than over water, are equally unreliable. Advice most welcomed!? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 ignore the trainers fundamentally he's your dog and ok not an out an out gun dog but part family pet as well. 9 months is still very much a puppy for a pointer but being a dog you have got your work cut out. They're very intelligent so do learn to give you the run about easily secondly they need plenty of exercise before they listen mine can be like a coiled spring at times, so sometimes training after a walk is the best i find as mine then listens and isn't quite so keen to hunt all the time. Retrieving is very hit and miss with pointers its not what they do best mine is a *** with dummies and looses interest very fast however show her something real and she'll carry it all the time given half the chance so don't loose hope on that front too soon. I met someone with a young GWP dog the other day and it was all over the shop and they were amazed how calm mine was which i must admit she did look in comparrison, i had to actually check it was a GWP as it only looked similar and about half as big again. with regard to running off in 9 acres its not necessarily that bad mine used to have free run at my mums on a couple of acres with her terriers so yes picked up some bad habbits but nothing she wouldn't have learnt anyway. Try a collar in the short term and you'll really find it the best thing ever made stops all this straight away. I know its not ideal and it would be lovely if we could teach them without but i couldn't and was really pulling my hair out, ok it worst case means you'll have to put it on for the next year or two but you won't use it many times as they are so intelligent. The other option is to look for a residential trainer to take him for a few months but you may well find they employ the same technique, plus if yours is like mine it won't like being away from you for long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Thanks for the reply, I figured I could rely on you for some constructive input, most appreciated I think if I go the e-collar route I'll get some assistance from somebody that has previously used one as a bit concerned I could screw it up. It is perhaps worthy of note that the sit, stay recall whilst in a hall during the oebdience classes is impeccable - super fast and direct even with other dogs in close proximity. It's when the distractions of prey scent comes into play that he loses it when over the park or fields. Again, his prey drive is seemingly so strong that he bombs out (often overshooting on a short thrown retrieve), picks up the dummy and starts running back with vigour only to decide at some point to move off left / right or just keep on going past me. I have seen how fragile the retrieve is in these guys at the HPR class though and fully concur on that. Reckon if I can get the recall sorted then any niggles with the retrieve will be easily remedied and the overall delivery etc. refined over time. Discussed the residential training scenario with the wife prior to us buying him, she was adamant at the time that she'd not allow it but suspect that position may have changed since. Was thinking about putting him in with someone like Rory Major when I go away for a week in November. If only we could get them to channel that intelligence into constructive behaviour... Plenty to think about - never a dull moment eh... BR Raja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Have a watch of this, ignore the first bit as well it is the point but its pretty boring. Sounds like it should be fairly straight forward to sort him out if recall is good indoors thats half the battle its just getting over the wanting to hunt all the time. To me using a collar isn't rocket science and you really have nothing to loose as though famous for being timid don't know about yours but mine is as thick skinned as they come. PAC ones have an audible signal and the strength of shock if you use it is adjustable. With mine she was bolting on rabbits near roads, beep then shock once and it was straight back. Perfectly behaved that day needed a follow up a few days later but really switched onto the beep so after that I've only used it a few times and now she's not worn it in ages. Though it will be having a refresher course and will wear it for a few days rough shooting just in case she gets carried away. http://www.paccollars.co.uk/dog-training-video.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 You must go back to basics. As you say the dog is ok in an enclosed enviroment, when outside even when just exercising never let the dog run free. Keep it simple, just walking to heel, sit and stay. Always be firm and insist the dog is following your commands. After say 4 - 6 weeks of this try using a very long rope when the dog is running free, say 20 feet and if the dog refuses to instantly recall yank hard on the rope, and I mean hard, and turn and walk in the opposite direction. Do not progress onto the next stage of training until the recall is 100%. I am sure that it is you that really needs the training (like us all) so make yourself get firm and take control and the dog will benefit. We are all tempted to rush training, slow down and only progress to the next stage when the dog is 100% on the tasks you have been teaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattyb Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Agree with charlie T try a long lead to start with i had the same problem with my spaniel and trained him on long lead recalling him every time he reached the limit of the lead and giving him lots of praise as he comes back. once he seemed to master that i let the lead drag on the floor so youve still got that bit of control if things go wrong. Once you think you can trust him take the lead off and see how things go if he runs off make sure you take him back to the spot it went wrong and tell him off, stick lead back on and take him straight back home and put him in his kennel or where ever he stays and leave him there for an hour or so and start agin the next day. Just gota stick at it and if your not happy how things are going dont think that will do make sure he dose what you want him to. Hope all works out for you matty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traztaz Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 There is alot of good advice here, some very effective with a GSP, some not so.I am onto GSP number 3 for me now, and live in Germany.The pedigree of the dog will dictate to a greater or lesser extent what you will get out of him.The GSP, GWP and GLP should never be concidered to be the same in any training aspect, GSP can be very sulkey like a 5 year old when you tell them off, where as a GWP is more like your 16 year old hard boy!! I have used e collar to great effect with my latest dog, however you need to know how and when to use an e collar.IT IS NOT A PUNISHMENT TOOL TO HURT DOGS!A collar with variable stimulus is required, and is used as a stimulus similar to a grip when they are at hands length, not as a lesson in pain. PM me with a phone number and I will talk you through what I have done and how, Sam is now 100% on recall, even when he thinks its fun to chase hares and deer. He is now 15 months old and has done very very well in two German exams for gun dogs here, and beleive me these exams are hard.He took 2 first places!! Like I said drop me a PM and I will help where I can, however if you want springer/lab behavior then you should have bought a springer/lab.........................I point this at the guys who have quoted the lines about springers and labs.It's a GSP not a springer or lab and they work differently, have a far greater hunting instinct, and a much much greater urge to roam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Really appreciate all the help and ideas chaps :look: Also appreciate the PM from someone else sharing similar experience - and an effective remedy - you know who you are :look: Took him out on the 10m long line tonight over a local park (away from the rabbits and foxes of the local country park) - he was real good for a while on the recall whistle and then had to resort to the verbal "come" command for a bit. Not too dissimilar to his behaviour off lead really as it often starts out OK and then deteriorates - boredom perhaps... Traztaz - thanks, I will take that offer of direct advice once I'm in a position to execute it - that way it'll be fresh in my mind. His pedigree is roughly split 50/50 with show and working lines, the working side from Birkenwald Rickyard. His sire is Meadowdale Hurricance and he's pretty much a carbon copy of his 'ol man appearance wise. There is no doubting that he has a strong desire to work and was born to hunt. Regarding choice of breed, plumped for a GSP after my wife did the obedience training with one of my father-in-law's English Pointers (ours is an angel compared to that one!) - so was fully aware of the rangey nature of them. Like spaniels but a couple of us in the household possibly intolerant of the hair - no disrespect to lab owners, and some of the working line labs are great, but not really my kind of hunting dog (yet). So never had any doubt that a GSP is the right dog for me, can't think of a more noble looking breed than a fit, alert, bright eyed GSP sat, pointing or quartering it's ground with his / her head held high. Fact is though that every other GSP at the HPR class comes back on recall command, mine is probably 4 months younger than any of the others, if when I get the recall sorted we'll be able to build on all his natural talent and have a dog to be proud of (I might then actually be relaxed with him off the lead and not feel like my heart is gonna burst out my throat!). Best regards Raja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Raja the others come on command in the class but do they outside when onto game which is a completely different story. Traztaz sounds like he's worth calling and chatting through as his is a GSP, my findings on long leads is it works fine for most breeds but just doesn't with HPR's and to an extent you don't want them working as close as you would a spaniel or lab its not in the breeding, I tried it and mine knew exactly when it was on and when it was off. If you think of an e-collar as being an extremely long lead thats the best description and as Traz says its not to hurt them its a stimulus / reminder and mine worked well simply on the bleep given straight after ignoring a command or whistle. It takes that heart out of mouth feeling away knowing you can stop the dog if it gets on a hare or deer which I found actually improved the dog all round not just when wearing it she generally was happier to be under control if that makes sense and of course you can wear them out more if they're allowed off the lead to run arround so its a win win situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Cheers for that. Purchased a secondhand canicomm 800 off of ebay late last night. There is a problem with the collar, which if I can't fix, will mean I need to buy another collar. It only cost me 30 quid so not much to lose there. Sorry if I'd not made it clear - the obedience class is indoors but the HPR class is in a field - I found out this morning that at least one of the other GSP's in the class had to have his recall sorted with an e-collar (although it doesn't sound like the instructors approve). Well, what they don't know won't hurt 'em I do fully understand what you are saying about the dog being happier when he is under control; I'm getting optimistic about this now because I'm convinced it's not the dog deliberately being awkward when he doesn't come back but instead that his prey / hunting drive takes over and nothing else matters / registers. When I can actually get his attention I can nearly always get him back... Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 sounds ideal looks like it has the beep and variable settings which is all you need, good luck post back results as it will be interesting to hear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinP Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Hi there I have a GSP who up until 1 1/2 years old was an abolute nightmare. Do brilliantly one day, the next did what he wanted. Had problems with recall to point where he would not bother coming back to me. Had occasions of upto 2 hours in my local park trying to get him back on lead. wouldn't run off, would stay feet away, out of reach. At these times would still do everything, stop and sit on whistle, search and retreive to about 2 ft away from me. We had a bambino of couple of months at time and the wife couldn't walk him so i had to do and then majority of time was on lead. Crups of it came when he got out side gate and was playing with the traffic. when wife went out, he stuck 2 claws up at her and ran to local park, got him back eventually but wife wanted to get rid. As i had put lots of time and work into him and believe it or not, was attached to him, i borrowed a ecollar as a last resort. Used it overall for about 3 mths and had to use shock on it i would say probably 10 times. Had a vibrate button which i used most but again not so much. He is 2 and a bit now and is a diamond. Fab indoors and does everything i ask of him, well nearly everything. No probs with recall now will return each time. Haven't used the collar in about 5 months. Really didn't want to use one but it was a situation of having an energetic working dog that couldn't be let off the lead or who we had to get rid of. Real test will be during the seaon but have been in areas where birds are and although distracted, he does what is asked. GSP's are very strong willed and i feel mine was trying to be top dog all the time. Perservere and you will really have a great dog who will be great company. I see yours has meadowdale in him, Kane or Hurricane i have seen and is a beautiful dog. Breeze, Hurricane sister is my GSP's mother. Very good pedigree and very strong urge to work. BE patient introducing to game etc, get basics out of the way first. best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinP Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 Hi there I have a GSP who up until 1 1/2 years old was an abolute nightmare. Do brilliantly one day, the next did what he wanted. Had problems with recall to point where he would not bother coming back to me. Had occasions of upto 2 hours in my local park trying to get him back on lead. wouldn't run off, would stay feet away, out of reach. At these times would still do everything, stop and sit on whistle, search and retreive to about 2 ft away from me. We had a bambino of couple of months at time and the wife couldn't walk him so i had to do and then majority of time was on lead. Crups of it came when he got out side gate and was playing with the traffic. when wife went out, he stuck 2 claws up at her and ran to local park, got him back eventually but wife wanted to get rid. As i had put lots of time and work into him and believe it or not, was attached to him, i borrowed a ecollar as a last resort. Used it overall for about 3 mths and had to use shock on it i would say probably 10 times. Had a vibrate button which i used most but again not so much. He is 2 and a bit now and is a diamond. Fab indoors and does everything i ask of him, well nearly everything. No probs with recall now will return each time. Haven't used the collar in about 5 months. Really didn't want to use one but it was a situation of having an energetic working dog that couldn't be let off the lead or who we had to get rid of. Real test will be during the seaon but have been in areas where birds are and although distracted, he does what is asked. GSP's are very strong willed and i feel mine was trying to be top dog all the time. Perservere and you will really have a great dog who will be great company. I see yours has meadowdale in him, Kane or Hurricane i have seen and is a beautiful dog. Breeze, Hurricane sister is my GSP's mother. Very good pedigree and very strong urge to work. BE patient introducing to game etc, get basics out of the way first. best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traztaz Posted September 18, 2009 Report Share Posted September 18, 2009 +Send that pm with your number on, it costs me nothing to ring you as I have euro flat rate on the phone.Sam is really comming on well.I must say mind even when he was playing ubber **** he never ever ran away for prolonged periods.Longest was about 10 mins and I was furious...................think he saw that!! GSP, best breed in the world if you can get them in grip!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooternick Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 E- Collar sorted mine out ok in double quick time too i would recommend one to anybody with a headstrong dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2009 So, as promised an update. Little **** has been pretty good with off lead recall this week; probably a number of reasons for that, including me only calling him when he appears undistracted, using a fair bit of liver cake (which he loves) and possibly because I've been feeling more upbeat in anticipation of the results we hope to achieve with the e-collar. Which brings me onto the e-collar - the one from ebay is proper broke so decided to just get a new one and be done with it. Based on the assumption that it needs to be reliable and deliver the energy you intend I figured it was not worth messing about with. Collar on the first time tonight in the back garden. Level 5 seems to register with him so I've set it at level 6 for correction so far. Not a happy bunny initially and went and sulked under the kids trampoline for a bit. Didin't have time to play around too much as tonight is obedience class evening. Trainer commented within a few minutes that "you must have been working hard with him this week". Told him he'd actually been a complete nightmare around the home the last few days but didn't go into the details (won't here either). Best obedience class to date but can't really credit that on the e-collar - have put a lot of effort in this week with the lead work to refine it and iron out a couple of niggles. Let him out to the garden on our return and he went straight for the washing on the line; ZAP! - he's not been near it since. Still feel a bit glum that we've had to resort to this but initial thoughts are that it's not had any negative effects. Have really tried to praise and encourage him as well as give plenty of affection since the collar has been on. He's still a baby after all. Will get a chance to try it out properly over the local country park tomorrow after a further brief trial in the nearby tennis courts. So, in summary, so far so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 what you'll find is its non confrontational so you don't have to reprimand the dog face to face which with a pointer never seems to work that well, you catch him the instant he mis behaves and so you can sort it straight away. Sounds like he may well need more exercise to counter the boredom / playful / being a ***** behaviour that they seem to do to try and wind you up. You'll find as you can let him off more with a collar on that you can run a bit of the energy out of him without fear of loosing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 Wow, what a difference... Took him out Saturday afternoon and he was like velcro on the recall - only used the collar once. Lots and lots of praise. Saturday evening he cuddled right up with us which he hasn't done very much for a few months now. Took him out early yesterday PM and he was a dream. Had to put him back on the lead when we got to the visitor centre because there were so many people, dogs and kids running around that it wasn't worth the hassle. When I did let him off again he temporarily forgot himself and got corrected. Solid after that though. We then went over one of my permissions for a walk - on lead to begin with and then off. Lot more challenging than the park because of various things he's seen but not had the free run of before. Needed a couple of corrections but on the whole pretty damn good and far more controllable than I could previously have dreamt of. On the way back to the car we did half a dozen simple thrown retrieves - fantastic Just goes to show how the recall issue was preventing other progress. Another walk back over the park in the evening, really good until we got to the lake. Pushed the button, nothing, ******! In he went, despite plenty of verbal correction it took me five or so minutes to get him back on the lead. Gave him a short sharp correction and left it at that; straight home from there. Turns out the handset had debonded from the collar. Unable to rebond successfully. Proved it's the new handset at fault as the secondhand one I got cheap off of ebay bonded fine and works correctly. Typical of my luck. Back out this morning over the park with him - recall good. I can see that he's going to need some further correction though as it's clear that we are still at the stage where he can, and will, regress over a relatively short period of time. Despite the minor set back yesterday, best weekend with the dog for ages and feeling like I've got the dog I'd always wanted and confident we can build on the further training for here. More soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 good on ya, worked so well on mine I'm all for them, they get a lot of flack and it takes a lot to try one but once you do you really wonder what all the fuss was about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted September 28, 2009 Report Share Posted September 28, 2009 No doubt it sorted you and others out--but by using it in such way, it's no wonder the e-collar has a dreadful and dreaded reputation in the UK. And will continue to have so long as the collar's used so, shall we say, "heavy-handedly"... MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man-o-woods Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Hi guys reading with interest. Be very cearful with the e-coller it can work the other way. wherein it can stop you'er pointer from getting out and hunting as it is suposed to do. I have hungarian Vizsla's wihich i work to the gun, use for beating,Picking up and also field trial.my prefered method is as mentioned by one of the other parties is the lunge lead. But also very affective is to do the recall in a narrow allyway so that the dog cant get past. do it in conjunction with a retrieve. send your dog for a retrieve as soon as the dog statrs to come back put him in the sit position wait a few seconds then call him in. this also stops the dog from running on with the retrieve. Give it a try it just might work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Man-o, Your point is well made and taken I have been very judicious with the use of the e-collar so far, perhaps even under-gunned it a bit at times, and am aware of the negative effects you mention if over-done. But I have to tell you that even by GSP standards it is clear, each and every time we meet with other GSP's, that ours has a particularly strong prey / hunting drive. Have continued with the retrieves, he did a 70 yard blind retrieve this evening over a local park in failing light (actually for all intents and purposes it was dark). Only one mind as I knew I was pushing it a bit. I can now let him off the lead at the park in close proximity to joggers, footballers, people sitting around on the grass / benches as well as other dogs and keep him away from them with verbal commands. This was totally unthinkable a week ago. So far I've really only focussed on the the recall and retrieves. He's still pretty much just as boisterous around the house and garden but we can live with that for a while longer. He has always bombed out for retrieves in a very enthusiastic manner but it's a revelation to see him come bombing back in the same manner - even if the delivery does need a fair bit of refinement. Not getting complacent though and prepared to explore other routes as and when required. BR Raja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 nice to hear its going well and I think most of us are pretty sensible with regard to the collars and if you use them like an extra long lead and at the minimum level required you can change your dog almost overnight. Mine certainly knew when she was on a long lead and when she wasn't and where I live a dog that is going to hunt and not recall has to either stay on the lead or you run the very real risk of them getting run over. With pointers needing to have a decent run if you constrain them to the lead the energy just balls up and you get an extremely hard to deal with dog. A collar on mine didn't stop her hunting at range and didn't affect her other than to make her want to please and more importantly listen. If you keep it all fun at the same time and back it all up with treats etc you do get a far happier dog. Having seen a few respected dog handlers with very well behaved dogs administer a good beating on dogs that mis behaved yet voice displeasure about collars I know which I prefer, and with an intelligent dog such as a pointer you rarely need the shock option mine was working on the beep function within a day of putting the collar on and probably has been shocked less than a dozen times all at the minimum possible setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man-o-woods Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Al i hear where you are comming from. My point is a little knowlage is a dangerouse thing. After all the dog is still a puppy. I'm not a lover of the e-coller and do not accept (as you dont either) that a damn good beating helps. I am a firm beliver in going to a dog traing class and get the basics first. this will 1. teach you how to handle you're dog and 2. socialise you're at the same time. I think the message Im trying to get to our friend is to take it slowly and build a bond with the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) absolutely and yes 9 months is still young, must say I didn't have a collar on mine till 18 months. As for the bond bet thats going well Raja I'm yet to hear of a pointer that doesn't worship their owner. My missus hates the fact that mine misses me when I'm away All i can say is a collar saved me so much agravation and frustration and in turn that gets passed onto the dog and when they want to hunt as much as the average pointer with the size they are they do take a bit of stopping. Lovely dogs but definitely not the easiest to train Edited October 1, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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