Mungler

You are absolutely crackers 😆😆 I see the words on the screen and I can’t believe that anyone can actually believe what you do.

Henry that makes the vote hunky dorey of course 😆 Democracy in full effect. In years to come the history books will look back on this referendum as the definition and embodiment of a free and fair vote… ah yes, Putin and democracy, the two just go hand in hand. That made me laugh. It also reminded me of the black adder episode where they win the local election when the existing standing candidate ‘accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the stomach while shaving’.

I think the government have seen that there’s a really really nasty long and deep recession coming - we and Europe are still dealing with the mass printing of money from 2008, covid, furlough and now Ukraine and add in Brexit in the middle of all of it. There’s no good news and we’ve got nothing in the tanks. Europe is in a similar position but shackled to the euro and euro rules and regulations. The only way out for us is turning london into Singapore on Thames - dealing with an over heated economy with full employment is the better of all of the Hobson’s choices. What I can’t stand is the politics of envy - the idea that making the rich poor solves all the problems. Bitter green eyed socialism right there. My own observation is that following covid the world (and certainly the UK) has lost a large chunk of the will to work and get on. There’s an expectation that everyone is now entitled to everything they want - money, house, Merc on the driveway, a state pension, an NHS with unlimited funding, police on every corner etc. We really do need to teach economics at gcse and in every school as a mandatory.

The BBC did an interesting on the ground piece covering the spontaneous gathering / rally outside the Kremlin in support of the war. Yes I know everyone likes to be rude about the BBC but I’ll take their news in front of Kremlin Today and everyday. The people were absolutely scared. Firstly the reporters were viewed with suspicion and then the crowd opened up - they were state employees and had been bussed in under threat. Then there was an outpouring - no one there wanted the war and everyone was petrified that one of their own was going to get called up and sent to Ukraine to pointlessly die. Anyway, the same people who organised that rally in support of the Kremlin’s war will be arranging the referendums. Brilliant. And given the Russian track record for a free, fair and democratic election / anything we’re supposed to take the process and the result seriously? It’s insulting.

If you think there’s going to be a free and open vote run by Russia (and without external monitoring), well, that’s like trying to argue with a flat earther - where to start? Why even bother? Too far gone down the rabbit hole for anything other than pro Russian propaganda.

I don’t even know where to start. If you are saying that you believe these upcoming referendums will be free and fair, then you have just revealed yourself to be either deranged, a true Russian shill or both. As for NATO assistance to Ukraine, that country is free to seek and receive assistance and training from anywhere it wants. When Ukraine broke from the USSR, took independence to go it alone, well the only arrangement they will be kicking themselves over was giving up their nukes. Indeed, if they had their nukes no doubt Putin would have picked on an easier target like all bullies. That said, I think we can all agree that if Putin knew back in December what he knows now, he wouldn’t have bothered to invade and go to war with Ukraine eh?

If you look at all the countries that actually pay their NATO subs in full and more, they are the minor countries close to / on the borders with Russia all in fear of Russian expansion. Drawing a line with Ukraine maintains the NATO buffer and in the same way the Americans conducted a proxy war against Germany through Britain in WW2, running a proxy war through Ukraine to weaken Russia is a no brainer provided NATO does not directly invoke itself and risk turning the world to glass. In other news it looks like the draft is going down a storm in Russia. Who knew, but it turns out no Russians want to go to Ukraine for no good reason and risk permanent injury or death.

Raking over where the West went wrong over two decades ago in the Middle East - all interesting stuff to note but not determinative or a precedent on how we must approach the situation to hand. Save for the risk of the world being turned to glass, it’s still heading in the right direction for Ukraine who have done a great deal more than anyone ever reckoned for, particularly Putin.

Bang on.

I take the point that there is hypocrisy but that doesn't and can't tie the hands of the next government or next generation. I could point to a whole load of differences between what's gone on historically in the middle east and what is now happening in Ukraine, the wholesale targeting of civilians being top of the list but it doesn't matter because the government and people of today can't be ruled or constricted by the dead hand of the government that went before. On the subject of pointing out the Russian invasion is morally "wrong", that opens the door up to supporting Ukraine. If Ukraine was happy to roll over, become Russian and didn't want any kit or assistance, then that would have been the end of it. However, despite what the fans of Russia Today will say, we are looking at quite the reverse - we have a well supported Ukrainian leader and what appears to be a highly effective army motivated to repel Russian invaders.

Gordon, worry not. There is no rational explanation and no one needs to hear any more Putin loving nonsense with faux justification for the invasion of Ukraine 😆 Nice to now see though the acceptance of there being an ‘invasion’ and not a special military operation 😆 Indeed the continued adoption of false terminology is also very telling.

Yes, and that’s because you’re wrong. Mind you, giving Putin a free pass to invade a non aggressing neighbour, for whatever reason, is an interesting glimpse into your perspective in this (as if we couldn’t already tell 😆). .

Well, that’s an easy one; you’re wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right 😉

Why did Putin invade? Well he / his officials have offered up half a dozen reasons none of which make any sense and all still point to a special military operation which clearly isn’t such. I personally don’t think it’s cocaine, Nazis or NATO - I’d put my money on a land grab to the coast. Searching for a reason for an invasion doesn’t change the fact that it’s happened and saying that there must be a ‘reason’ lends a sort of credibility. I didn’t say you did. I asked the question. What is the point to pointing out western hypocrisy and where does that lead to next? Serious question.

Maybe so. Does that then automatically give Putin a free pass to invade Ukraine then?

If you’re going to make the point about Blair’s illegal war in Iraq which I absolutely didn’t ever support, well you can, but it doesn’t alter my view on the morality of the Russian invasion of Ukraine or how that should be dealt with by the global community now. Moreover, where does it take us? Blair and Bush ballsed up twenty years ago and so Putin gets a free pass into Ukraine and no one should say or do anything? I’m pretty sure most Ukrainians wouldn’t agree with that view.

I was scoffed at previously, but I genuinely believe the invasion of Ukraine to be a moral issue. The invasion is the most abhorrent, entirely unnecessary and inexcusable act which cannot be supported directly, indirectly or tacitly. The world slept as Putin previously elbowed his way into his neighbours and the invasion of Ukraine to me is the line that has to be drawn and which has been crossed. When the indefensible is defended or attempted to be explained away, as the posts come forward which are either outright Kremlin propaganda / nonsense or which are overtly critical of Ukraine only (and thus tacitly supportive of Russia) I will happily jump and push back to add balance. The good news is that some of the early overtly pro Russia / Putin posts have calmed down as they have proven to be manifestly untrue and incredibly unpopular against the groundswell of opinion going against Russia and the invasion. That’s pretty much it.

Your love of all things European has made your skin very very thin on the topic of Brexit or any criticism of the EU. The next time there’s a brexit / eu thread I shall watch intently on your balanced approach to the debate 😁

Well, there’s no point is there - we’re out, rowing our own boat and that’s democracy for you. Mind you, it’s since turned out it was democracy heavily influenced by Russian skullduggery 😆 Incidentally there’s a great documentary on Netflix about ‘Wire-card’. It touches on the Kremlin sponsored stirring of nationalism across Europe seemingly to bust up the EU. I digress…

It’s perfectly fine not to believe either side but to consistently only post criticism of only one side (being the invaded party) is noteworthy. I don’t pretend to be neutral - I think Putin is a despotic invading murderer so I don’t have to pretend to have balance in my views 😉

What are you wibbling on about? 😆 Shhhh We can start another Brexit thread if you like 😆

Just on a point of order, I do find it odd that you (and others) post so much content which is ostensibly against any support of Ukraine - the above video focusing on the cost of providing support to a country that wishes to remain independent and repel an invader. Why no video on the cost of this war to Russia? And still no comment or substantive criticism of Putin or Russia? Why is that? I think the best those sympathetic to Russia can muster is ‘Putin’s made an absolute mess of it, he’s sought conflict and failed in his ambitions, indeed he’s losing on every front. Just be wary of a lunatic who has painted himself into a corner.’

This is Vietnam all over again. How hard do you think conscripted troops will fight as opposed to those who are fighting for their freedom and their homes? Well, we’re about to find out, again… Oh I forgot, yes of course, we were told by some on here that Zelensky was going to deposed in a revolt and it would be all over in Russia’s favour by June. Indeed this thread when reviewed will make for some hilarious reading - some of the predictions from the Russian shills are so far from reality it hurts. Mental note : pay no attention to a word they say going forward.

Don’t bother, you will wear yourself out 😆 If you read his long reply to your original post, I think he has actually agreed with you on all fronts, but it’s dressed up in long disagreeable paragraphs. Back on topic, I don’t general or partial mobilisation is going to help Putin much (and certainly not in the short term) or give him whatever it is he thinks this is all about. But hey, he’s a master tactician right and all of this (including the large scale ‘tactical withdrawals’ and significant loss of equipment) is all part of the master plan remember 😆 Indeed, it’s all going swimmingly for Russia right now 👍

At the time the Wall went down the Russian and the Chinese economies were the same size. In the intervening period the Chinese have played a great game of climbing the global greasy pole to arguably get to the top. Regardless of what NATO will or won’t do, you can bet that the Chinese won’t want the world which they have already painstakingly conquered economically and commercially to be turned to glass by some lunatic gangster. Having scraped the prisons for people to fight in Ukraine Putin is first now calling up old service personal - out of shape, out of training and out of the military, and who will now leave their families and normal lives to risk serious injury and death in Ukraine. That’s going to go down well. And training new recruits. Well, who will do that and how long will it take before they can be deployed? I wonder how this will play out in Russia and on the free and open media in that democratic beacon and guiding light that is Russia? 😆