A different .17 v .22 debate

[Alpha Mule]

Did I mention that I've been in the forces for years (OK, it was a while ago) and have fired thousands of rounds, mostly in SLRs and GIMPYs and fewer in 9mm pistols and Browning machine guns?

 

Having fired rounds that will go through 3ft of living oak and still kill you on the other side, will travel for 5 miles and still kill you after 3 miles and will pass through domestic brick walls as if they aren't there gives you a healthy respect for trajectory and backstops etc.

 

On a slightly more humble point, I do have trouble judging distance in the pitch black. I use a red lamp to locate and approach the quary, only resorting to the rifle lamp when I'm ready to fire. Sometimes I reckon 'they' are about 30 yards out only to pace it after the shot and find it much closer indeed.

I think I've just answered one of my own questions here. The .17 has a much flatter trajectory which means I have a better chance of killing what I aim at, rather than having to try to estimate the 'loop' the round will take.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Alpha Mule

[blackbird]

I pay £32 for 500 .22 subs & £10.50 for 50 .17HMR

[Alpha Mule]

'Someone' has just offered to bring his guns to my permission (if it has been assessed for them [i'll check with the boys tomorrow]).

 

I've checked with 'the boys' (female actually) and none of my 3 permissions have been assessed and won't be until I apply for my FAC.

So I'm in a catch 22 situation (should that be a catch .22 )

 

So I suppose I'll be applying for .17, .22 and something larger for the foxes (and chuck a shottie license in there too for good measure).

I won't be buying a safe until I see what I can get though!

 

The bottom of it is that I'll have to sell my much loved motorbike to finance this lot. Some will have to go into buttering up the good lady too

[PAULT]

I've checked with 'the boys' (female actually) and none of my 3 permissions have been assessed and won't be until I apply for my FAC.

So I'm in a catch 22 situation (should that be a catch .22 )

 

So I suppose I'll be applying for .17, .22 and something larger for the foxes (and chuck a shottie license in there too for good measure).

I won't be buying a safe until I see what I can get though!

 

The bottom of it is that I'll have to sell my much loved motorbike to finance this lot. Some will have to go into buttering up the good lady too

if your up my way give me a shout i got a 22 a 223 and a 243 you can have a go at

[Dunkield]

Did I mention that I've been in the forces for years (OK, it was a while ago) and have fired thousands of rounds, mostly in SLRs and GIMPYs and fewer in 9mm pistols and Browning machine guns?

No you didn't

Just makes this a stranger question

 

How does the recoil compare?

[Alpha Mule]

No you didn't

Just makes this a stranger question

 

I have never fired a powder .22 or a .17 either. The distance that the .17 reaches is apparently about 50% greater than the .22 so even though it weighs less, I would expect a bigger kick, but I have no idea just how big.

My CO2 rifle has virtually no kick at all - as far as I am concerned, but to someone who has never fired a rifle it could be substantial.

I appreciate many of my questions are subjective and are very dependant on each shooters own experiences. I take no offence at any of the comments and appreciate them all.

My army days were a very long time ago

[chris d]

hi mate had both the 22lr and the 17 hmr,both were cz pros and cons of 22lr cheap ammo, can use subsonics or hi vellocety rounds, bucks the wind better than hmr, also will go on for years (barrel wear). the cons bouncing bullets ,shorter range than hmr , trajectory . pros of 17 hmr dead flat trajectory out bout 120yrds, very effective on rabbits, hare, and (fox 100 yrds max) . the cons expensive ammo, noisy, bullets dont like wind (will move 3" in a 10 mph wind)the best nights for lamping are windy nights! hmr also often take a running in period of a few hundred rounds mine took bout 400. BARREL WEAR ON A HMR after 3000,3500 you will need a new barrel probly cheaper to buy another hmr! hope this helps. ime goin back to 22lr and will be shutting the hmr (cheaper bullets) if you go for a cz mate get an eric brooks trigger kit bout 11 quid from rimfire magic this will tranform the rifle

[Alpha Mule]

hi mate had both the 22lr and the 17 hmr,both were cz pros and cons of 22lr cheap ammo, can use subsonics or hi vellocety rounds, bucks the wind better than hmr, also will go on for years (barrel wear). the cons bouncing bullets ,shorter range than hmr , trajectory . pros of 17 hmr dead flat trajectory out bout 120yrds, very effective on rabbits, hare, and (fox 100 yrds max) . the cons expensive ammo, noisy, bullets dont like wind (will move 3" in a 10 mph wind)the best nights for lamping are windy nights! hmr also often take a running in period of a few hundred rounds mine took bout 400. BARREL WEAR ON A HMR after 3000,3500 you will need a new barrel probly cheaper to buy another hmr! hope this helps. ime goin back to 22lr and will be shutting the hmr (cheaper bullets) if you go for a cz mate get an eric brooks trigger kit bout 11 quid from rimfire magic this will tranform the rifle

 

Jeez, that is a very substantial point! Added that the ammo is about 2.5 time dearer.

I'm liking the flat trajectory, but the expense is scary!

 

I'm currently one of the great unwashed, hunting for work. I've used up my 6 months of welfare (I used to pay more than I received in 6 months, in a fortnight!) and now we (4 of us) have to live on my wife's income, so it's starting to look like the .17 bis going by-by.

[Glensman]

If money is in anyway tight I'd go with the .22lr.

[chris d]

go for the 22 mate you could always go for the hmr later,just put in for both on your fac application, then you allready have the slot/spare slot on your ticket when your ready to buy one this will save you an extra 26 quid on a varation simples!

[George1990]

I have only been shooting powder burners for a few months myself, I am no wise old gent, but this is just what I noticed

 

I am a fan of the HMR myself. Me and dad often go out, dad with his .22, and there were many times where I had to take the shot as the .22 was range limited. The lie of the land meant we couldn't get closer easily. Also, they're accurate enough to take only headshots, so meat damage isn't a problem. 25p a shot is quite expensive, but in the greater scheme of things it isn't too bad.

 

But my main reason for wanting the HMR was so I didn't have to bother mucking around getting close to them. There was limited places on my permission where the air rifle was appropriate. If you're a sneeky sod, and the land provides good cover, then the .22 is looking like a better bet.

 

 

I have never fired a powder .22 or a .17 either. The distance that the .17 reaches is apparently about 50% greater than the .22 so even though it weighs less, I would expect a bigger kick, but I have no idea just how big.

My CO2 rifle has virtually no kick at all - as far as I am concerned, but to someone who has never fired a rifle it could be substantial.

I appreciate many of my questions are subjective and are very dependant on each shooters own experiences. I take no offence at any of the comments and appreciate them all.

My army days were a very long time ago

 

You barely notice recoil on either, a tiny bit more than a springer air rifle maybe?? I am no crack shot, so would go to about 80 yards max with .22 and 150 yards with HMR.

[Baldrick]

You barely notice recoil on either, a tiny bit more than a springer air rifle maybe?? I am no crack shot, so would go to about 80 yards max with .22 and 150 yards with HMR.

:blink:

 

I can shoot comfortably out to 110 yards with my .22LR. The scopes I use have a ladder reticle, so I can shoot precisely using holdover. With practice and ideal conditions, you should be able to extend out to 100 yards with the .22LR.

 

If I could be bothered to dial in, I reckon a .22LR would be good for double that distance. In fact it would probably kill a rabbit cleanly at 250 yards, if one's scope had sufficient adjustment capability (or was sitting on a 20MOA base) and crucially, assuming conditions and marksmanship skill were perfect. Have a search on here for the photos StuartP took of his long-range .22LR testing. If I recall correctly, the .22LR was still punching cleanly through discarded 1.5" chipboard at over 200 yards.

[al4x]

the big issue to me is judging range in the dark, I find it fairly hard to tell the difference between 80 yards and 100 with a .22lr that misjudgement is a miss. Unless you use a rangefinder it'll always be a bit hit and miss

[Glensman]

the big issue to me is judging range in the dark, I find it fairly hard to tell the difference between 80 yards and 100 with a .22lr that misjudgement is a miss. Unless you use a rangefinder it'll always be a bit hit and miss

 

 

Same as... I'm muck at judging ranges - not that hot during the day either :blink: . Keepin an eye out for a SH Leica CRF!

[Baldrick]

the big issue to me is judging range in the dark, I find it fairly hard to tell the difference between 80 yards and 100 with a .22lr that misjudgement is a miss. Unless you use a rangefinder it'll always be a bit hit and miss

 

Another reason I like scopes with ladder reticles (such as the Meopta 4B reticle). It's very easy with practice to judge the distance of a target of a known size (adult rabbit) using such a reticle (or a mildot ret). I struggle more with very close-range shots with the .22LR than I do with the ones at long range. I take a Leica CRF 1200 with me (possibly a little excessive) but that's no substitute for daily practice.

[Alpha Mule]

Has anyone tried one of these?

At under £15 they might be worth a go. If anyone has tried one, I'd love to know.

[Baldrick]

No, they're not worth a go. I have tried a very similar mechanical rangefinder, AM, and it was shoddy. As with everything in life, you get what you pay for. I managed to cope without a laser rangefinder for many years, and it was only when I started to get into long-range centrefire shooting that one became necessary. You should be able to judge distance to within +/- 20 yards with the naked eye out to 200 yards, with practice, and further still albeit with less accuracy: all you need to do to develop that skill is practise shooting realistic targets at known ranges, until you're 100% familiar with sight pictures.

 

I'd spend the £15 on some more ammo and just put some extra rounds down-range.

[Alpha Mule]

No, they're not worth a go. I have tried a very similar mechanical rangefinder, AM, and it was shoddy. As with everything in life, you get what you pay for. I managed to cope without a laser rangefinder for many years, and it was only when I started to get into long-range centrefire shooting that one became necessary. You should be able to judge distance to within +/- 20 yards with the naked eye out to 200 yards, with practice, and further still albeit with less accuracy: all you need to do to develop that skill is practise shooting realistic targets at known ranges, until you're 100% familiar with sight pictures.

 

I'd spend the £15 on some more ammo and just put some extra rounds down-range.

 

Sounds like a plan although it might take me more than £15 :blink:

[Alpha Mule]

OK, the current flavour is now .17 That flat trajectory, day or night, at better distances is proving more seductive than a quite round.

I've figured:

Pellets cost about £7 (500 at a time) and CO2 bottles (5 at a time) work out at (not including delivery charges) 6p a shot.

 

500 rounds of powder .22 at £30 costs about 6.5p a shot.

 

50 rounds of .17 at £10.50 costs 21p a shot.

 

Now I appreciate that the larger quantities you buy means bulk discounts and that the numbers I'm using above are not even (does anyone have a web site where I can see prices for myself?), but taking into account the number of pellets I waste getting my ranges wrong, I reckon going the .17 route won't cost me that much more, if at all :blink:

[Supersonic]

Purely for noise reasons I use a .17 hmr during light hours and a silenced .22lr subsonic at night.

 

Nige

[Billy.]

I'll jump in here during a quiet bit.

 

My opinion is as follows:

 

I completely agree with Baldrick. A 22LR is an ideal gun to start with. Better if you start with airguns, but not essential.

 

My .17HMR is currently sat dormant in the cabinet as I have taken to appreciating the quietness and challenge that the LR gives. Yes, the .17 is flat shooting, but it's horribly noisy and really easy to get blown off course. The rounds are very expensive and if you hit a rabbit in the chest or backside, you can forget prepping it for the dinner table.

 

I am not saying that it's a bad round. It's actually quite impressive. I've seen one of those bullets punch straight through a pound coin at 50 yards, that was just stood on its edge...! (I'm not saying it was me who shot it)

 

Oh and the bit about ricocheting 17 bullets. I've had countless of them. Any person who says they have fired thousands and hasn't heard a single whizzing sound, must be firing into mounds of filtered topsoil all the time.

[Alpha Mule]

I don't think anyone said why .17s are more expensive than .22s

Looking on Guntrader there is about £50 difference with some dealers while others are the other way round with a £5 difference.

Do these folks not realise we can see all manner of sheeite in the web?

 

Also I notice the the cheapest bog standard .17 is £320 the most expensive (again, bog standard) is £459.

How can there be a £140 difference?

 

How does the RFD delivery thng work and how much does it cost?

I've seen prices bandied about of £25. If this is accurate then I'll buy from the guys in Ayrshire and have it delivered to a more local shop.

[Baldrick]

I don't think anyone said why .17s are more expensive than .22s

Looking on Guntrader there is about £50 difference with some dealers while others are the other way round with a £5 difference.

Do these folks not realise we can see all manner of sheeite in the web?

 

Also I notice the the cheapest bog standard .17 is £320 the most expensive (again, bog standard) is £459.

How can there be a £140 difference?

 

How does the RFD delivery thng work and how much does it cost?

I've seen prices bandied about of £25. If this is accurate then I'll buy from the guys in Ayrshire and have it delivered to a more local shop.

 

I would imagine the price differential between .17 HMR and .22LR models of the same rifle comes down to demand only - there is probably a minimum of two .17 HMR rifles sold for every .22 LR. Whilst demand remains high, the same rifle will be priced high by a small-time dealer wanting maximum profit, and priced as a loss-leader by a major dealer like Sportsman.

 

My RFD (Eastern Sporting, Chelmsford) charges an outrageous £50 for an RFD-to-RFD transfer. £10 of that is the TNT courier charge - quite why 5-10 minutes of admin on the computer warrants the balance of £40 is beyond me.

[Billy.]

My RFD (Eastern Sporting, Chelmsford) charges an outrageous £50 for an RFD-to-RFD transfer. £10 of that is the TNT courier charge - quite why 5-10 minutes of admin on the computer warrants the balance of £40 is beyond me.

 

 

Ouch! That's painful! I just picked up my Beretta from my RFD, it'd been sent by Avalon Guns and they made me post them my ticket so it could be signed straight on. I said I'd pay the RFD cost, so he chucked in free delivery (35 quid was the postage cost inc. RFD cost (obviously the two shops split the money or whatever))

 

I picked the gun up and said I'd have 25 clays with it, so they gave me a box of shells and I went for a test fire... Came back to pay and the woman said "that'll be £10" thanks. Happy days! Turned out she didn't feel it was worth charging me as it was already on my ticket. So I just had to pay for the clays and cartridges.

[Alpha Mule]

I appreciate that links to other sites is frowned on, but this one has graphs and suchlike that make it simple for dorks like me to see the differences in trajectory between the calibers.

 

Link