Country_est Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 I think that a lot of this has to do with the "witnesses" and their versions of the truth. If what was reported on TV ect "is" true and that the person did indeed run stumble, fall onto the train, even after the stop requests had been made, its the (supposed, reported) fact that 5 shots were used to kill this guy. How dead is dead it you are using head shots. Groups of 2 or 3 at range to ensure a kill possibly. 5 at point blank range seems excessive. But this is just the one guy from tv I have seen. Real true would be from coronors report, but we wont see that. Plus from a pervious post "one down 2 million to go" would mean at this rate 10 million rounds. So those who volunteered to to the hand loadng best get busy. :( :thumbs: As for the other post mentioning religion, it has been the bigest killer thu out all ages. From the crusades, Ireland, Isreal, current situation ect ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Pudding Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Lets have a look at the facts . An order to stop may have been shouted . Men in security uniforms have a weapon drawn . What are you going to do ? Are you going to run ? Or are you going to stand still ? Even if your understanding of the security officers native language is next to minimal , your going to understand that a "situation" is occuring . To my mind only a guilty person runs , or somebody with something to hide . If i try to put myself in the security officers place , i think the outcome would be exactly the same . A person i'm following is getting close to a crowded train . This person is belived to be a suicide bomber . An order to stop is shouted . Man starts to run towards the train . It's a no brainer , i'd shoot to kill . all the best yis yp :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete k Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 would this be refered to as collateral damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr Pieman Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the fired rounds actually hit their target? No! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the fired rounds actually hit their target? No! :( Well if the guy doing the shooting didn't get all his 5 shots on target when standing over the man, what does that tell you about his competance as a marksman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Whichever way you look at this, its a tragedy. For the dead man, his family, the Policemen involved, the Police, the Government, etc. I just hope it doesn't mean a return to, softly, softly, policing in the present circumstances. There are quite a few conflicting stories about the dead man in todays news. He is 27 years of age, came from Brazil three years (four years) ago to study (or work as an Electrician), speaks perfect English, and lived at (visited) an address that had been found on a piece of paper in a Terrorist's rucksack (the brackets denote variations). What isn't disputed in the news, is that he was approached face to face by a plain clothes policeman showing his Warrant Card, outside the Underground Station. At this point, he ran into the Station pursued by the Officers and the rest we know. Why should a person who speaks perfect English run, when approached by a plain clothes Policeman showing a Warrant Card, in broad daylight, on a busy London street ? That is not the actions of a rational, or innocent person. Members of his family can't explain his actions either, except to say he was brought up in a poor part of San Paulo, where people are suspicious of the Police. Being 27, with no Police record in Brazil and having lived in England for 3 or 4 years, I would think he might have outgrown any such "phobias". Taking all this into consideration, I can't believe the Police acted irresponsibly, or criminally. One last point: Between 22,880 and 25,915 innocent civilians are believed to have been killed in the latest Iraq War. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 One last point:Between 22,880 and 25,915 innocent civilians are believed to have been killed in the latest Iraq War. That figure is frightening, and even more so when you consider that they are still being murdered in the streets by the same mongrels that are planting bombs in London. :< Just how a bunch of Muslims can kill another bunch of Muslims in the name of Allah is beyond me. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza Posted July 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Wonder how many innocent civillians Saddam Hussein killed in his day? :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power" :( G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Interesting stats!! So if we look at it this way @125 deaths per day under the old Sadam regime it would have only taken 207 days to kill that many civilians. The time elapsed between (start of op Tellic) March 20 2003 until now (July 24 2005) is 856 days Subtract the 207 days that it would have taken to kill the 25,915 innocent civilians and we are left with 649 days If we now multiply the 649 days with the average death rate under Sadam, which was 125 deaths per, day and we get a figure of 81,125. The number above is representative of the number of people over and above the 25,195 who have been killed since the liberation of Iraq who would also have died but are still sleeping safely in their beds at nighttime. So in summery 25k have died and 81K have been saved. I know which system I would sooner have my family live under. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 One last point:Between 22,880 and 25,915 innocent civilians are believed to have been killed in the latest Iraq War. It would appear that the reason I mentioned this statistic, may have been misunderstood. In future I will avoid subtlety. :( My point is, that we are fighting a War against Terrorism in this Country. Whilst all attempts must be made to prevent "civilian" casualties, they do and will occur. Whilst much will be made by "Liberty Groups" and others, regarding this terrible accident in London, I don't read too much about the civilian casualties in the "other" war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Out of interest, does anyone know how many of the fired rounds actually hit their target? No! :( Well if the guy doing the shooting didn't get all his 5 shots on target when standing over the man, what does that tell you about his competance as a marksman? Im with the Pieman on this ,a situation arose the suspect ran ,shots were fired ,a man went down ,all be-it an inocent man , the situation required an officer to make a snap decision, which ive no dout will remain with him for many many years , in my own and many others ,the right decision , inocent people will get hurt ,we can only hope its kept to a minimum. as to the marksmanship ern , the truth is Adrenalin plays a major role in your's or anyone's preformance , all of the reports ive read on fire fights are assimalar in this respect , with your heart rate flying your hands are trembling your acuracy will falter , im glad he kept enough control to hit only the one he was shooting at . As to the future ,lets hope its warning enough that England aint going to sit and wait for the next time , the best form of defence is a good offence Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ernyha Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 TLE I think you are missing my point about marksmanship, according to eye witness accounts the victim had fallen and was on the floor of the train when the officer stood over him and fired 5 shots into him, yet the Pieman questioned how many shots hit him. In case anyone thinks I am soft on bombers and terrorists, they couldn't be further from the truth, I refer to my original post on this subject where I applauded the shooting of the bomber but added my reservations about a plain clothes man having the power to act as judge,jury and executioner. Unfortunately my fears turned out to be well founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTMS Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Men were NOT in uniform, man spoke and understood English. Tough choice. Can anyone honestley say they would do any different giving: a. Posssible device. b. Content of possible device? c. Stress d. Public safety e. Orders? f. Public outcry if wrong g. Their lives h. Experience i. Adrenalin J. See (e.) k. Rage? l. Hate m. DO NOT GUESS UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN THERE AND FELT THE FEELINGS, EMOTION AND INSTANT DECISSIONS YOU HAVE TO MAKE. IF YOU HAVE THEN YOU WOULD NOT BE QUESTIONING THIS THREAD. Appologies Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 I think you will find it is policy to put 5rds in to a suspected suicide bomber. Remember Gigralter when they thaught the terrorist had a command device for a bomb he was shot 20 or so times. In court souldier x was asked why did you shoot this man 20 times? ans sory your honour but I ran out of bullets!! These people help keep us safe but are falable the same as the next man but I think most people involved in the security services would have done the same thing. I hope this guy is not made a scape goat to placate the muslum community. That truly would be a travasty. Big boys games; big boys rules. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Red Fox Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 If an armed police man tells you to do something..........YOU DO IT!!!!!!!!! Anyone who doesn't, especially after recent events, deserves to get shot! Mark. I'm with Mark 110 % Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badsworth Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 So in summery 25k have died and 81K have been saved. I know which system I would sooner have my family live under. I agree with Devilish Dave - the numbers will sometimes speak for themselves if you let them. Badsworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badsworth Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Well if the guy doing the shooting didn't get all his 5 shots on target when standing over the man, what does that tell you about his competance as a marksman? You wouldn't have any right to comment unless you have been in a similar situation! Most research shows that in a 'combat' situation police officers usually miss with 60% of rounds when using pistols. But this was not like other situations - and most research on this subject is a load of ****. One American cop once replied that he would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6! They deserve all our support. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 AMEN :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the last engineer Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 (edited) TLE I think you are missing my point about marksmanship, according to eye witness accounts the victim had fallen and was on the floor of the train when the officer stood over him and fired 5 shots into him, yet the Pieman questioned how many shots hit him. In case anyone thinks I am soft on bombers and terrorists, they couldn't be further from the truth, I refer to my original post on this subject where I applauded the shooting of the bomber but added my reservations about a plain clothes man having the power to act as judge,jury and executioner. Unfortunately my fears turned out to be well founded. sorry Ern , it wasn't a critisism ,i understand your point and in veiw of the facts conceed , my understanding was he was shot 5 times on the run , i had no idea the cop was atop him , still i feel this and other situations will have differing playouts as to the reaction's of officers involved , some will veiw as overkill (skews pun ) some will veiw as absolute nessesatiy , im sorry it was the wrong guy , but i stand by the fact he should have stopped , you would have had to be born in the boonies not to see the step up in security of London ,he made a wrong decision to run . unfourtunatly it cost him his life Martin Edited July 25, 2005 by the last engineer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Could be the reason he ran- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 (edited) Course of events- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4714557.stm G.M. Edited July 25, 2005 by Gemini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilishdave Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Innocent people dont run from police!! Criminals beware!! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Innocent people dont run from police!!Criminals beware!! Dave :( :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete k Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 i think the only way to solve this problem would be to have the transport police show the cctv footage that there is bound to be some-where of the police approach and the ticket stiles , but i fear they will not do it . pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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